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Is the 12th fret harmonic an independant...

property of the strings?

Those of you who read the thread 'A couple of questions about tuning...' will know there seems to be some disagreement about whether the 12th fret harmonic is part of the intonation process or an independant property of the strings.

In that thread I claimed the harmonic is an independant property and offered a way to prove it somewhat scientifically. Well I went ahead and did the experiment myself and I belive it strongly supports my position. You are welcome to perform it yourself and see.

First, I used my P-Lyte since the strings were well broken in. I checked the intonation which was as accurate as I can get it.

Then I twisted a 3/4 inch piece of wire around the 'A' string at the 6th fret.

SAM_0011.JPG

Next, I retuned the open 'A', necessary because the mass 'defect' made the string out of tune.

Open A.JPG

Then I checked the 12th fret and found it was still in tune. This is to be expected since the mass 'defect' is below the 12th fret.

12th Fret  A.JPG

At this point the string can be considered intonated (to at least the level most of us would accept). That is the open 'A' is in tune and the 12th fret is an octave higher.

So what about the harmonic, the harmonic that was exactly 1 octave higher than the open 'A'? It's 10 cents flat.

12th Fret Harmonic.JPG

I think that shows pretty conclusively that a string can be intonated and yet the harmonic can be out. A simple mass defect in the string can cause this condition.

I welcome your comments.
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Re: Is the 12th fret harmonic an independant...

7/19/2010 7:37 AM

Kelly Marsh (11415) wrote:

Paul,

I think you are over-thinking this. When
intonating a fretted instrument, matching the 12th
fret fretted note to the 12th fret harmonic is
simply how it is done. Period. Take your
instrument to any luthier or tech, and this is
what they will do.

Yes, this does assume the string is perfect, or
very close. It also assumes the fret is in exactly
the right place, in good shape, and that the
instrument can actually be intonated. Some can't,
due to poor construction. I've seen instruments
that had the bridge placed wrong, or the neck
pocket cut wrong, or the nut slot cut wrong. These
could not be intonated.

Then there are the ones that have been damaged,
whatever the cause. Warped necks, necks with
reverse bows, or even just frets that are too
badly worn. These could not be intonated, though,
granted, much of this is more of a general setup
problem. Proper setup is the first step in
intonation.

But people have been building fretted instruments,
and making strings for a very long time. I have
been intonating and setting up my own instruments,
and those of friends and customers for over thirty
years now. From otherwise sound instruments, I
have gotten wacky results once or twice. In each
case, I assumed the string was at fault, and in
each case I was right. Changing the string always
fixed it.

If you have a quality instrument that is not
damaged or worn out, and use quality strings, you
will almost never have a problem. And, if you do,
change the string, then call up the company that
made the first string, and complain, :)

Kelly




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Re: Is the 12th fret harmonic an independant...

7/19/2010 2:37 PM

Maurice Carr (36802) wrote:

This 'mass defect' phenomenon has caused mass debate.....methinks! :)

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Re: Is the 12th fret harmonic an independant...

7/20/2010 7:07 AM

Kelly Marsh (11415) wrote:

Yup. :)

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Re: Is the 12th fret harmonic an independant...

7/20/2010 2:39 PM

WAYNE ELLIOTT (21617) wrote:

I think you are over-thinking this. When
intonating a fretted instrument, matching the 12th
fret fretted note to the 12th fret harmonic is
simply how it is done. Period.


Thanks Kelly ...
I knew I could count on someone
who knows ALL the piano notes!

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