I tune to my 5th fret when I encounter inconsistent
intonation. Then the open is just a hair under
perfect and the 12 would be a hair over. However, I
find that flats that utilize a lighter gauge has a
more even "consistency" than thicker gauges.
Strings do have quite the big say in this matter,
but so does having your bass professionally set up
by a very well-seasoned tech.

I tune to my 5th fret when I encounter inconsistent
intonation

That's a good tip Ivan. Especially if you haven't had time to set the intonation.

In my case the intonation is good. It's just the harmonic that's a bit sharp. I suspect the string is a bit less than perfect. Not that it's a problem since I seldom use harmonics for play. I just have to remember to allow for it when I tune since I generally use harmonics for tuning.

but so does having your bass professionally set up by a very well-seasoned tech

True. Although I'm not too bad at setups myself. With the SR all I needed was a tweak to the truss rod to get tha action I like. Only 2 of the 4 strings needed the intonation setting.

you're intonation is out. i just set mine up a couple of days ago and the tuner reads the same at the open, 12th and 12 fret harmonic.

I have struck this before too.

Changing the strings did the trick without further alteration so it could have something to do with the mass.

I have also found this happen on older strings. No matter how you set the intonation up, it's out on certain harmonics and/or frets. Again, a fresh set of strings fixd the problem. So stretch may have an affect on strings.

Unlike you, I can notice just a fraction of difference in tuning and it bugs the crap out of me when it's not perfect. It's weird because I have 20% hearing loss ( rifles ) yet my pitch is always bang on. I can even tell when the guitarist has one string ever so slightly out of tune during a song!

As a side note, on the lower frets ( toward the nut ), the fret layout seems to be a compromise. Kelly brought this to my attention a while ago. If you were to perfectly set out the frets up to say the fourth position, they'd actually be staggered for each string. Splitting hairs?...well yes, but when your pitch is sensitive, that's even noticeable.

I tune by ear, after stuning the 5th position of my A string ( to D ) to the keyboard.

I can notice just a fraction of difference in tuning and it bugs the crap out of me when it's not perfect

I'm lucky when I can hear a semi-tone out. ;(

I should mention this is why I used to use 5th and 7th fret harmonic interference to tune. I can hear the beat patterns changing better than I can hear the pitch.

this is the way I normally tune as well, AFTER I tune with my electronic tuner. Even a single semi tone will cause a waver at these harmonics that can certainly be heard by a tone-deaf person, and at louder volumes, say club level, on the bass, they can be felt by totally deaf people, those who have no hearing at all.

The overtone series (natural tuning) will never quite line up to tempered tuning. If you really listen, being in tune while singing harmony acapella (no accompanyment) is "out" when you record it and then play along with digital keyboard. The math is very complex, but when you listen to, say, African singers who are of my generation they sound slightly out of tune because they learned the the acoustic (natural) tuning.

After setting the intonation on my new Ibanez I noticed that while the open A and 12 fret A are identical the 12 fret harmonic (of A string) is sharp by about 5-7 cents.

This has to be the string right?
............................

What are the results of doimg that same procedure on the OTHER 3 STRINGS?

This has to be the string right?

As far as I know, yes. 12th fret is center of string (when intonated) while 12th fret harmonic is at center of mass of string. They coincide if the mass of the string is evenly distributed.

What are the results of doimg that same procedure on the OTHER 3 STRINGS?

The other 3 strings are perfect. 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic within 0-1 cents.

keep adjusting it til you get it right.

Hey Todd. How're you doing these days?

The thing is, once the open string and 12th fret are exactly one octave apart the intonation is set by definition. Adjusting it any more won't change anything.

The 12th fret harmonic rings true at the center of mass of the string. If the mass isn't distributed evenly it won't match the 12th fret exactly.

It's a very minor difference here so I don't need to do anything. If it was worse I'd replace the strings (see Mo's post above).

The thing is, once the open string and 12th fret are exactly one octave apart the intonation is set by definition. Adjusting it any more won't change anything.


This is NOT true, and I'll explain if you wish.

......


It's a very minor difference here so I don't need to do anything.

Very true

This is NOT true, and I'll explain if you wish.

Of course I'm interested. I don't see how my statement is wrong though, intonation is defined as the 12th fret pitch being set to one octave above the open string.

Of course I'm interested. I don't see how my statement is wrong though, intonation is defined as the 12th fret pitch being set to one octave above the open string.

Your statement is not WRONG, it's just incomplete.
.......................

Take any bass you have, that you have intonated the 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic to either spot on, or a cent or two off either way.

( one would do this for all strings, but we'll start with the "E" string. )

Next, fret the 5th fret "A" note on the "E" string, and then the 17th fret "A" note on the "E", and share with us the results.
[ i.e. how many cents flat or sharp each "A" is ]

Your statement is not WRONG, it's just incomplete

Ok, I think I know what you're getting at. tempered vs natural tuning. Correct?

What I was getting at, was what IVAN SAID, I think.
Once again, this is a really small problem not
worth making fuss about.

For example:
If it measured minus five (-5) at the fifth fret, zero (0)
at the 12th, and positive five (+5) at the 17th fret,
you'd be better off making it (-2),(+3),(+8) respectively.





After setting the intonation on my new Ibanez I noticed that while the open A and 12 fret A are identical the 12 fret harmonic (of A string) is sharp by about 5-7 cents.
....

I did not read this thoroughly the first time.
How many frets on this bass?

I see what you're getting at. You can average the differences over the fretboard and I agree this is a good suggestion.

The point I was making is that when a difference between the 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic is observer the most likely culprit is the string.

How many frets on this bass?

It has 24 frets.

The point I was making is that when a difference between the 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic is observer the most likely culprit is the string.

Is that what you meant to say?
.......


Or this?
After setting the intonation on my new Ibanez I noticed that while the open A and 12 fret A are identical the 12 fret harmonic (of A string) is sharp by about 5-7 cents.
.....

Next, fret the 5th fret "A" note on the "E" string, and then the 17th fret "A" note on the "E", and share with us the results.
[ i.e. how many cents flat or sharp each "A" is ]

What results did you get?

Did you loosen/ de-tune the "A" string and the spin the 'barrel' { AND THE STRING } at the bottom a few turns?

I think we're getting mixed signals here Wayne. In the original post I wasn't so much asking for help as asking whether any of you feel a difference in 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic pitch was important especially since I can't hear the difference. Hence,

Should I be concerned? I can't hear any difference.

My opinion was, and still is, that my A string is a little out in terms of mass distribution.

Next, fret the 5th fret "A" note on the "E" string, and then the 17th fret "A" note on the "E", and share with us the results.
[ i.e. how many cents flat or sharp each "A" is ]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here but I'm willing to give it a try. I'd be willing to bet that the 5th fret A on my E string should be within 2-3 cents of 440Hz.

... within 2-3 cents of 440Hz.

.....


What brand / model number of tuner are you using?

I tried your suggestions last night. My 5th fret 'A' was pretty much bang on. No more than 0-2 cents flat. My 17th fret 'A' was slightly more flat, maybe 1-3 cents.

I'd pretty much consider those to be within acceptable limits since I can't hear a difference myself.

BTW, in response to your question above, I use a Korg tuner or the tuner that comes with BiaB. Both seem to agree with a small margin of error.

I tried your suggestions last night. My 5th fret 'A' was pretty much bang on. No more than 0-2 cents flat. My 17th fret 'A' was slightly more flat, maybe 1-3 cents.

I presume it was at ZERO for the 12th fret?

If so, interesting that it is 'FLAT' on both
ends ... it usually is linear!
Meaning:

FLAT ...ZERO ... SHARP
to some degree or,
SHARP ...ZERO ... FLAT

to which any improvement on
one end will worsen the other.

My opinion was, and still is, that my A string is a little out in terms of mass distribution.
Agreed!
However, if you replaced the "A" string, and found the new one giving similar results I would be concerned.

In my opinion, determining an improper mass balance would have nothing to do with fretting the string.


So yes, our 'mixed signals' are dealing with 2 issues:
1. An unevenly distributed body mass of a string.
... and
2.Intonation.

... asking whether any of you feel a difference in 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic pitch was important especially since I can't hear the difference.

That statement is the very definition of INTONATION BEING OUT!

The thing is, once the open string and 12th fret are exactly one octave apart the intonation is set by definition.

What I've been trying to convey to you is don't judge intonation being IN, by what is going on at ONE PLACE.

This is roughly akin to checking the air pressure on ONE tire, and presuming the other three are the same.

....................

So the real question is whether the 12th fret harmonic is part of the intonation process. Up until now I have never encountered the harmonic being mentioned in any article on setting intonation.

However, I just found an article that does claim the harmonic as part of the definition. So it seems there is some disagreement on this.

I'm going to fall back on the idea "if you can't hear a difference it isn't important". Interesting discussion though.

...So the real question is whether the 12th fret harmonic is part of the intonation process....

Use it as a guide if you don't have an accurate tuner and you don;t trust your ears well enough.

Not all tuners are created equal. The iPhone tuners are even worse with quite large variations and if yo google it, you'll see someone has done comparison tests. If you ears are good enough, harmonic tunic will work better than a tuner that yo may not know the accuracy of.

...However, I just found an article that does claim the harmonic as part of the definition. So it seems there is some disagreement on this....

There's disagreement on about every subject that even comes up on the internet :)

...I'm going to fall back on the idea "if you can't hear a difference it isn't important"...

That's the spirit!

Mo

There's disagreement on about every subject that even comes up on the internet

Ain't that the truth.

"So the real question is whether the 12th fret harmonic is part of the intonation process."

It can be if your ear is good enough. It is for me. I use the 12th and 24th frett harmonics to test mine. If it's off a bit I set it with a tuner.

Dave

However, I just found an article that does claim the harmonic as part of the definition. So it seems there is some disagreement on this.
......

What article was that?

Article

This quote seems to support your claims.

To adjust the intonation of your guitar or bass, you move the bridge saddles toward or away from the fret board until the 12th fret octave and its harmonic are equal and the same open-string note is exactly one octave below those.

On further reading however is this quote...

Adjusting an instrument's intonation consists of setting the bridge saddles to produce the note at the 12th fret exactly an octave higher than that of the open string.

which is the definition I always understood to be correct. No mention of the harmonic.

Further support for this comes from this.

With the aid of an electronic or digital tuner, compare either the open string or the octave harmonic at the 12th fret with the fretted octave at the 12th fret.

Note the either and or. The 12th fret harmonic should be co-located with the mid point of the string, and usually is. However defects in the string, nut, saddle or pup placement can cause the harmonic to not coincide with the string mid point.

I therefor stand by my claim that the harmonic is independant of the intonation process. It should coincide with the mid point but may not under some circumstances.

I just thought of an experiment that should put this question to rest.

Tune your A string to 440Hz. Check that the 12th fret is tuned one octave higher. Now check the 12th fret harmonic is also one octave above the open string. At this point I think we can agree that the intonation is correct.

Now twist a short piece of wire tightly around your A string at the 6th fret. Make sure it's tight enough to not vibrate.

Now try the 12th fret harmonic again. The pitch should have changed and possibly the exact location may have changed also depending on the mass of the wire.

Now pluck the 12th fret. The pitch should be unchanged because the wire (mass defect) is behind the 12th fret and doesn't affect the upper half of the string.

I think this shows pretty clearly that the harmonic can be different from the 12th fret even if the intonation is otherwise perfect.

First off, Paul, we are getting way, way, way,
too deep into the stuff!
........

Second, adding mass on purpose is a wonderful
idea ... I applaud you sir!
.............

Tune your A string to 440Hz.

My "A" string is around 55Hz, give or take,
so attempting to tune it to 440 would result in
potential loss of vision, and facial scarring!


At this point I think we can agree that the intonation is correct.

What I have been trying to get you to grasp is
that if one cared enough to do ANYTHING about
setting the intonation ... [ most don't know
anything about it, >>> and those that do, end
up doing little or nothing anyway }... doing
a few simple procedures, and then measuring at


ONE POINT ... does not insure
that the process is done!

Setting up one's bass to the best of one's
ability should be the aim.
But once that has been done, it's done.
Go play and enjoy. :)

...First off, Paul, we are getting way, way, way,
too deep into the stuff!...

Hahaha - you started it Wayne : )

Mo

Sounds like over complicating a pretty simple thing for the most part.

Dave

First off, Paul, we are getting way, way, way,
too deep into the stuff

Probably, but I do like to see these things through. Sometimes I learn something new. Sometimes I'm right and someone else might learn something new.

Second, adding mass on purpose is a wonderful
idea ...

I actually did the experiment this weekend. I'll post the results in a new thread.

doing a few simple procedures, and then measuring at ONE POINT ... does not insure
that the process is done!

I never made that claim. I'm aware that intonation is a compromise. None of the notes will be perfect pitch even with the intonation set correctly.

The claim I did make, and can support with evidence, is that the 12th fret harmonic is an independant property of the string and not part of the intonation process.

When I get my new thread posted please take a look and comment.

It'll never be perfect from Fret/note to Fret/note. I generally set my intonation to make sure the lowest 9 frets are close to perfect, because this is where I spend the most time.

It'll never be perfect from Fret/note to Fret/note

Absolutely.

I generally set my intonation to make sure the lowest 9 frets are close to perfect, because this is where I spend the most time

I could probably get by with 9 frets and 2 strings (maybe 3 on a good day). lol

If it wasn't for 3 of the songs we play (out of 15), I could play a 2-String!!! lol

doing a few simple procedures, and then measuring at ONE POINT ... does not insure
that the process is done!

I never made that claim.
####################################################

@@@@@@@@@@@@
The thing is, once the open string and
12th fret are exactly one octave apart
the intonation is set by definition.
Adjusting it any more won't change anything.
@@@@@@@@@@@@

... measuring at ONE POINT ... does not insure
that the process is done!
####################################################

@@@@@@@@@@@@
The point I was making is that when a difference
between the 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic is
observer the most likely culprit is the string.
@@@@@@@@@@@@


Not with a defect free string!
####################################################

and then measuring at ONE POINT

who said anything about measuring at ONE point. I said tune the open string (point 1) then adjust the saddles until the 12th fret is in tune (point 2). Then check the harmonic (point 3).

See this site.

Or this site.

Or Fenders site.

Not with a defect free string!

My point exactly. You are assuming a defect free string when you intonate using the 12th fret and its harmonic. But what if the string isn't defect free?

6/29/2010 11:09:49 AM
Paul Warren (13499) wrote:
and then measuring at ONE POINT

who said anything about measuring at ONE point.

I said tune the open string (point 1)
then adjust the saddles until the 12th fret is in tune (point 2).
Then check the harmonic (point 3).


@@@@@@@@@@@@
The thing is, once the open string color = blue>and
12th fret color = blue>are exactly one octave apart
the intonation is set by definition.
Adjusting it any more won't change anything.
@@@@@@@@@@@@

I don't see what your point is. Both staments I made are equivalent. You tune the string at two points and then check the harmonic.

@@@@@@@@@@@@
The thing is, once the open string and
12th fret are exactly one octave apart
the intonation is set by definition.
Adjusting it any more won't change anything.
@@@@@@@@@@@@

.......................
Then check the harmonic (point 3).
.......................
Where in the statement
above did you mention this?

*****************************

measuring at one point I'm
referring to the 12th fret area
as ONE POINT!

measuring at the 5th,12th and
17th fret, for example, would
be measuring AT MORE THAN ONE
POINT!

This is getting silly Wayne. In the OP I said:

After setting the intonation on my new Ibanez I noticed that while the open A and 12 fret A are identical the 12 fret harmonic (of A string) is sharp by about 5-7 cents.

Open A, 12th fret 'A' and 12th fret harmonic. That's three points. I also explicitly awknowledged that you should check other points as well. Something that, right or wrong, I assumed was implicit.

I've provided links to sites that seem to both support and refute my position and I've provided experimental evidence that you can check yourself. What more could I have done?

That's the last I'm going to reply to this. The horse is dead already.

After setting the intonation ...


You did NOT set the intonation if
the 12th fret harmonic is off !





on my new Ibanez I noticed that while the open A and 12 fret A are identical the 12 fret harmonic (of A string) is sharp by about 5-7 cents.


*********************************************************
6/24/2010 4:21:17 PM
Paul Warren (13501) wrote:
So the real question is whether the 12th
fret harmonic is part of the intonation process.



Yes, it is, and therein lies your confusion !