Wayne,

First off, I don't understand things like R,2,3,
when you are talking about F,G, and C. To me, that
should be R,2,5, or to simplify things, 1,2,5. And
you completely lost me with the R,3,3 bit.

Second, when you asked "What are your favorite
choices for a note to be added to these triads?"
you left out a couple of key bits of information,
at least for me. And those are, what style of
music are we talking about, and what key are we
in? And, yes, I got what you meant, from the note
names.

However, the notes I would add to these triads
would depend entirely on the style of music, and
the key. I suppose, assuming all these triads
really are based in the key of F, I might be able
to extrapolate the style of music, but to be quite
frank, I really don't feel like working that hard.
:P

Kelly

"lost me with the R,3,3 bit."

This method is what I use when at
a piano keyboard. As I'm sure you
know, if we wanted to go down from
the key of "F" to the key "Eb" on a
fretboard ... we need only to go down
2 frets, and we can play the same
patterns and be just fine. On a piano
keyboard, it's a little tougher for my
musically challenged brain!

Sorry, my bad. Thanks for being Frank.

Well, Wayne, I can even be George if you want. :)
However, I would really appreciate it if you would
explain your system in a way that I could understand
it. :)

Kelly

R,3,3 = 1,b3,b5 = F,Ab,Cb = Fdim
.....

O.K. I shall presume you know what
a triad is.

All 4 of the above are just different
ways to express the same thing.

So, at the piano keyboard, start on
an "F" note (zero) count (one)to "Gb"
next count (one) to "G", and finally
count (one) to "Ab.

Thus at this point we've gone from
the "R" 3 steps up{ keys in this case,
but it would apply to frets as well! }

From the "Ab" we repeat the process
and find ourselves at "Cb".

Let me know if this helped.

Thanks Kelly

Wayne

R,3,3 I think you meant R-3-b3. Bassists do not use Maj7ths very much what I meant my coming down r-3-b3 it can resolve nicely into a major 7th. Or if you want to replace the Maj 7th chord you can use a 6th instead. sounds nicer when walking

"R,3,3 I think you meant R-3-b3."
********************************
I MEANT NOTHING OF THE SORT!

Did you read the post ... ?
What instrument was I speaking about ?

Wayne,im sorry. I thought you were refering to what i was talking about 7-8-5-b5-3-b3. resolving to a maj7. My bad. you stare at these posts long enough and they start looking the same lol.
Have a good one

Dan

Not that those are the notes of a Maj7th just good notes to use walking into a majth

maj7th i meant to say

Wayne,

Oh, I think I get it. You are adding half-steps
together? R+3=F&Ab, and R+3+3. or R,3,3= F,Ab,B?

If this is the case, I can understand how you are
doing it, but not why. I mean, if you were to want
a root, a major third, and an octave, it would be
R,4,12?

I dunno, if this is the case, it's way too
complicated for me, at least to think on the fly.
That's like math, and stuff. :P Besides, there is
already a well established numbering system in
place, which most musicians understand, and
communicate in, and that's, for example,
F,A,C=1,3,5. (or R,3,5.)

If I were to tell any player I know that the tune
was in the key of F, and the changes were R,3,3,
they would play F,A,A, and look at me really funny
when I didn't do the same.

Kelly

Let me start by saying I have no
musical training whatsoever! LOL

"R,3,3 = 1,b3,b5 = F,Ab,Cb"

Represents 3 different "schematics"
of how those triad chords could be
played. [the notes of ].

On a six string electric guitar
for example, one can play an "F"
barre chord, and keeping the hand
(fingers) in the same position
slide up two(2) frets and have
a new "G" chord formed.

In other words, you can just keep
moving the "picture" up and down
the fretboard and achieve the desired
result.


However, on the piano, if you played
a "C" major triad chord ...

"and keeping the hand
(fingers) in the same position
slide up two(2) frets"

OBVIOUSLY KEYS IN THIS CASE ...

we get a "D" minor triad if we

"just keep moving the 'picture'

up and down eventually we stumble
back to a Major triad on the 4 & 5.

................................

if we wanted to go down from
the key of "F" to the key "Eb" on a
fretboard ... we need only to go down
2 frets
I should have used 'chord' instead of 'key'
from a previous post. My bad!
................................

So, on the piano, the pattern of the
'picture' of the chord will change
as the "R" root note changes!

Using the "Root and successive step
numbers" method, works for me on an
instrument I am far less familiar.
**************************

Besides, there is
already a well established numbering system in
place, which most musicians understand, and
communicate in, and that's, for example,
F,A,C=1,3,5.
... both of which were included
R,4,3 = 1,3,5 = F,A,C= FMaj
in my original post.


If I were to tell any player I know that the tune
was in the key of F, and the changes were R,3,3,
they would play F,A,A, and look at me really funny
when I didn't do the same.


Once again, my ignorance lead you to
the above statement, which in and of
itself is accurate, but not germane,
as a result of my inability to properly
express my thoughts.

Thanks Kelly

Wayne

p.s.
Do you play piano?

Wayne,

First off, yes, I do play piano. It was the first
instrument I started learning. I started when I
was three, which was quite some time ago.
Furthermore, when I was in my twenties, I got
quite involved with it, and took some very serious
"classical" lessons for a couple of years, and
worked quite hard at it.

I am well aware of the differences between a
keyboard and a fretboard. Yes, on a keyboard, the
chord shapes change slightly when you move from
key to key. However, there are still exactly the
same amount of degrees, or notes, in any scale, on
a keyboard as there are on a fretboard.

Keyboard instruments and stringed instruments each
present their own challenges. In fact, stringed
instruments can be more of a challenge, because
one is so often tuned differently from another.
Violins, violas and cellos are tuned in fifths.
Upright basses are tuned in fourths. Mandolins are
tuned in fifths. Banjos,well, they are all over
the place, and resonator guitars even more... and
so on.

The one thing all western instruments have in
common (and I mean western in the sense of the
globe, not as in Country and...) is that they all
use the same scale.

Yes, with bass, or guitar, or most any other
fretted instrument, all you need to do to change
keys is move your hand, and play all the same
shapes. (aside from the open strings) And, on
piano, or any other standard keyboard, when you
change keys, you not only need to move your hand
over, but you also need to change the shapes of
the chords and scales you play.

However, things like I,IV,V are pretty much a
universal language, among musicians. I've even
played with some who didn't speak English, and
whether they played guitar, keyboards, harmonica,
sax, or kazoo, they all knew what I, IV, and V
meant, even if I had to hold up the right amount
of fingers at the right time to communicate it.

And good keyboard players learn the shapes of
different keys, the same way good stringed
instrument players can play guitar, fiddle, and
mandolin without having to cheat and tune them all
the same.

I think your number system is clever, I think it
is concise, I think it is accurate. However, I
also think you should learn the standard one,
instead of trying to promote your own. When I was
a teenager, back in the seventies, they told me
that the US was going to go metric. Metric makes
sense. It is in base ten, which is easy to do in
your head. It does away with a TON of pesky
problems. But, you know what? It never happened,
because people were used to the old way, and what
is more, for instance, when someone asks how far
away a place is, no one has to do the conversion
from miles to kilometers. Same thing with R,3,3
and so on. ;)

Kelly

I think your number system is clever, I think it
is concise, I think it is accurate. However, I
also think you should learn the standard one,
instead of trying to promote your own.

Just so you, Frank and George are clear :),
I did not come up with that on my own, nor
did I mean to promote it as being equal to
the well established 1,b3,b5 method.

If I were at a keyboard and you shouted
out "Wayne play a D minor triad ", I still
have think in terms of 1,b3,5 so that's a
D > F > A. ( the 3rd of the D Major scale
is F#, which I know you know )

Then I need to find the white
key in between the 2 black keys ... that's
the D key, then the F and A etc, etc ... all
of which I know in time will become second
nature.
....................

Furthermore, when I was in my twenties, I got
quite involved with it, and took some very serious
"classical" lessons for a couple of years, and
worked quite hard at it.

Wow.
So you can name ALL of the notes
on the piano !!! LOL

Thanks Kelly

Wayne

Wayne,
I do like your desire and passion for theory. That is a good thing. Asking why and how things work is a good thing. I can relate to what you are saying. And I do understand why you are asking. These questions. People made the current numbering system that is widely used because people asked questions and presented why they thought it is right. in a way you are right setting aside the numbering system I was taught.

You mentioned a
Dim
the way I was taught was it is
1-b3-b5
Dim7th
1-b3-b5-bb7 technically 1-b3-b5-6 the double flat notation is more correct because it shows how the 7th is further diminished from the half diminished state.
m7b5
1-b3-b5-b7 or b9,b11,b13 instead of a b7

in a way you are right setting aside the numbering system I was taught.
..........................

No Dan, it's a logical, short term device to get
me up to speed more quickly with regard to piano!
Like training wheels or a crutch when you can
"DO IT" without, you no longer need those devices!

Not setting it aside it will always be there in second nature we think in intervals and associate it with the fret and note we are using.

Wayne,

"Wow.So you can name ALL of the notes
on the piano !!! LOL

Now, THAT was funny! Best laugh I've had in days. :)


Kelly

However, the notes I would add to these triads
would depend entirely on the style of music, and
the key. I suppose, assuming all these triads
really are based in the key of F, I might be able
to extrapolate the style of music, but to be quite
frank, I really don't feel like working that hard.
:P

...notes I would add to these triads
would depend entirely on the style of music...

1,b3,5 = F,Ab,C = Fmin
1,b3,5,b7 = F,Ab,C,Eb = Fmin7

So, an Fm7 chord might be used in Jazz
frequently, but rarely in Gospel?

Or, used in Classical, but NEVER in Reggae?

Thanks Kelly


Wayne