Not following what "R,2,3" means.

"R" = Root
"2" = Equals number of keys (piano) away, from Root.
"3" = Number of frets or keys (piano) away from
the prior note.

"F" = R Plus 2 =
"G" + 3 = ?? really hard math.

Should be R,2,5
or r2 d2 pc03

R,2,3 wasn't adding up. R,2,5 makes sense, especially with the explanation.

I've not encountered that convention before.

Next year, that convention
will be held at YUK YUK's.

I like to add a 9th such as a F9 it resolves nice to a 13th such as a Bb13th. And the Bb13th leads nice into a G7. I always have liked the 13th bcause it has a hidden dominant 7th and opens up to alot of other variations.

F7
F,A,C,Eb
"add a 9th"
we get
F9
F,A,C,Eb,G
or
F,A,Eb,G ( if we drop the 5th )
....
Is this what you had in mind?
....

Bb Mixolydian Scale
Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab
1,2,3,4,5,6,7

or

Bb Major Scale
Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,A

Flattening the 7th
we get:

1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab


1,3,5,7,9,11,13
Bb,D,F,Ab,C,Eb,G

Bb13th
I presume we would want
to place emphasis on:
a. the root; Bb
b. the 13th; G
....
What other notes of the
remaining five do we want
to give more attention?
....


G7
1,3,5,b7
G,B,D,F
......
I want to be sure I understand
before asking further questions,

... so please spell out the
3 chords you mentioned:

A). F9
B). Bb13th
C). G7

Thanks

A good example is the Jazz Standard "Watch What Happens". The 3rd and 4th measures are F9
Measures 5 and 6 are Bb13
And the Bb13 resolves into the first ending of G7

What are the notes of:

Ab6 & Eb6?

Ab= Ab-C-Eb-F

Eb= Eb-G-Bb-C

Draw a picture of:

Bb6 & F6

Hi Wayne, what are you getting at do you want me to make a scale/sequence chart for both?

Bb6

F6

or the relative minor of Bb6 is Gmin7

Gmin7

And the relative minor of F7 is Dmin7

Dmin7

Shouldn't an F9 chord
have a "G" note ?

This and the F6 (shown below)
have F > A > C > D ...
what's the difference ?

shown above lol

Yes you are right the 9th is a 2nd or G but because of intervals you would not play a 2nd

F9

You may want to add a 2nd between the root and 3rd on a F9 if you are making a cool walking line

in my arrangement of WWH i am mixing uo the steps of he chords

It also depends how you are going to arrange those chords to fit a score. there are so many variations

"it has a hidden dominant 7th"

dominant 7th = 1,3,5,b7
Bb7 = Bb,D,F,Ab

Is this what you mean?

Yes, you can use the b7th in the 9th, 11th, and 13th chords. The example was in a 13th.

Last post my bad i should og selected the G in the Bb13th sorry

1-Bb,3-D,5-F,7-Ab,9-C,11-Eb,13-G
Bb ...D ..F ..Ab ...C ..Eb ...G

Bb,D,F,Ab = Bb7
D,F,Ab,C = D 1/2 dim7
F,Ab,C,Eb = Fm7
Ab,C,Eb,G = AbM7
C,Eb,G,Bb = Cm7
Eb,G,Bb,D = EbM7
G,Bb,D,F = Gm7

I guess I should have been
clearer in my question
about that which was hid.

Maybe I should of explained it better. what i meant any chord with a 13th has a hiddenDominant 7th. sorry ny bad. The dominant 7th also can be used in the 9th, and 11th. Try to stay away from the Maj 7th Be careful using Maj7ths uless your substituting a Major it can come in handy when creating walking libes. The most important walking line using ma Maj7th.Is the most important walking line : R23 and 5th for majors. You can use the maj7 in combinations like feeding into the chordal notes this way: 78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually. And sometimes a back cycle of G7 around C too (coming down DBC EupG EbE BC.

When you were speaking of
a 'Dominant 7th' ...

Were you speaking of a NOTE,
or a CHORD?

A Major 7th NOTE
(... a "B" in the key
of C Major)
vs.
a Minor 7th NOTE.
(... a "Bb" in the key
of C Major)

I'm guessing when you
refer to those NOTES,
you use MAJOR & DOMINANT
(as oppossed to Major &
minor)!

Sometimes one will hear
or read reference to a
(seventh & flat seventh)
[ with regard to the "B"
and the "Bb" mentioned
above ]

When I speak of a "3rd"
I mean a Major 3rd, when
I want to name the other
one I specify minor 3rd.

As for "7th", I mean a
minor 7th, if I want the
other one I specify
Major 7th.

Just my two cents. lol

You are right. there is so many incorrect terms used in music especially in jazz. Food for thought when I want to hold a conversation with a old school jazz cat I have my lingo together. A good example is a letter Carol Kaye sent me. See below.

Dear Dan,
To answer your questions below.
>>>6th over certain chords. Also during measures with 9ths I like to use a b7th <<<

You bet, you're doing it right! Just remember to create hills and valleys, and then rest awhile on the chord without moving up or down, (takng a "pit stop" I call it when teaching). Yes, you can use the b7th in the 9th, 11th, and 13th chords of course. And you're correct about the 6th on majors and please remember the most common walking bass line of all: R23 and 5th for majors. You can use the maj7 in combinations like feeding into the chordal notes this way: 78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually. And sometimes a back cycle of G7 around C too (coming down DBC EupG EbE BC.

Listen if you enjoyed playing rock that's worth the time put in it, you were playing...what better thing to do in life than to play music! Now it's just time to move on and get your real musicianship together for more styles of music you'll enjoy....you won't have to work in places where beer bottles are thown around (darn no more fun!)....and get paid more and work with better musicians too playing Standards, and some jazz but you'll always have some funky soul and/or rock number to play too......don't feel badly that you didn't know this stuff long ago....you've got another 30-40 playing years left.

Work on the "Autumn Leaves" (backed with "Jazz Blues") bass walking sheet, the walking ideas are all there, well not "all" but enough to keep you inventing a lot of fine lines for awhile.

Take care,

Carol

I presume there are a lot more opportunities to play Jazz Standards where she lives than where I live, so "get paid more" might not be inaccurate. But it sure is inaccurate here.

I'm trying to find a way that "you won't have to work in places where beer bottles are thown around" is anything but musical snobbery. It ain't looking good.

lol we were joking around about some of the clubs I played in when I was younger and a more roudy croud lol It was a inside joke.

So it isn't that she's wrong or a musical snob, it's that your manner of quoting her made her appear to be?

Carol has always been there for me when I have a question and has helped me alot. She has been a great tutor and a caring person. and there are times I do disagree with her on certain things. But it has always been good because she explains why. She does respect me and my opinion because she knows I had a great theory teacher.

Are you having an affair with this lady Dan? You seem to never stop mentioning her.

lol. stop it mo.

So David whats your point? You have lost me here. The manner of how I qouted it was word for word. Theres no hard feelings between Carol and me. Are you trying to make it look like im bad mouthing her? What I got out of what she said to me was the proper technique on improv and walking and i agree with her. If you got anything else out of it you must of misunderstood it.

I see that was not my intention. I as more concentrating on what flat 7ths fit certain chords thats all.

works good for me around here dave.

Your right. D half dim 7th is R-Min3rd-Dim5-min7
aother nam is
Min7(9th)

The most important walking line using ma Maj7th.

Is the most important walking line : R23 and 5th for majors.

You can use the maj7 in combinations like feeding into the chordal notes this way:

78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually.

And sometimes a back cycle of G7 around C too (coming down DBC EupG EbE BC
...........

Ummmm ... you either need more SLEEP
or more COFFEE !!!

LOL what part did you not understand? sorry if I confused you. Was it using maj 7ths on bass while walking? Or using the 2nd? Pretty easy stuff if you listen in intervals and know what sounds bad and what not to use. I use maj 7ths in my jazz walking but I have the experience but I dont recommend it for someone who was not taught how to do it. To put it humbly and being nice take my advise because this is 100% correct if you do not understand ask me I would love to try and explain it differently.

When you were speaking of
a 'Dominant 7th' ...

Were you speaking of a NOTE,
or a CHORD?
**************************
Question 1.



"ma Maj7th"

A WHAT?
**************************
Question 2.


"R23 and 5th for majors"

Is that Root; 2 ; 3; & 5ths?

**************************
Question 3.


"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

7; 8; b5; 5; b3; 3; maj7; Root; ?

**************************
Question 4.


"of G7 around C too (coming down DBC EupG EbE BC"

same type of thing as Q. 3 & 4

**************************
Question 5.

oh i see. my bad. lol. I was talking about the flat 7th that can fit into any 9th,11th, or 13th. sorry for the confusion.

question 1 When you were speaking of
a 'Dominant 7th' ...
Were you speaking of a NOTE,
or a CHORD?
the flat 7th of the major scale.
Question 2: "R23 and 5th for majors"

Is that Root; 2 ; 3; & 5ths?
Yes putting in the second step makes a better sounding walking line. Ray Brown did that.

Question 3 4 and 5. dont understand ur question

"ma Maj7th"

A WHAT?
**************************
Question 2.

Sorry Wayne,

Too much thinking on theory.It should just come natural hearing the intervals and knowing what notes to use and not to use without too much thought. Youbring up alot of good questions. but as for myself it makes it more confusing when I already am working the fretboard by ear.
Thanks for a good thread take care.

Dan

Berklee College of Music was founded on the revolutionary principle that;

"Too much thinking on theory.It should just come natural hearing the intervals and knowing what notes to use and not to use without too much thought."
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@










I guess since you can't answer my questions,
you didn't understand it from Carol in the
first place.
I see now that a "ma Maj7th" differs only in
gender as compared to a "pa Maj7th".


"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

7; 8; b5; 5; b3; 3; maj7; Root; ?

**************************
Question 4.


"of G7 around C too (coming down DBC EupG EbE BC"

same type of thing as Q. 3 & 4

**************************
Question 5.

(((((((I guess since you can't answer my questions,
you didn't understand it from Carol in the
first place.))))))))
For one your questions do not make sense. Also I did not learn my theory from Carol, I learned it from Ralph Grasso hands on while playing with him. Carol used to work for Ralph. When it comes to Berklee they ask Ralph for his advise. Dont presume that I cant answer your questions. You are just not asking the me the right questions.

"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

7; 8; b5; 5; b3; 3; maj7; Root; ?

If you do not understand this you need to practice your intervals. This is basic stuff man, I just do it i dont think it.

i'm screwed!!!!!

Wayne,

your making things more complicated for yourself by learning more than one method. When im discussing intervals i am talking about cordal notes not scale notes. such as a 5th, b5th, 9th, etc. You are mixing in modal thinking in scales. Thats fine if you want to be a teacher. I was taught to think in Chordal notes because I had to play with Ralph Grasso and thats how those old jazz cats think and play.

Wayne,
Stick with one method. Modes are fine to learn but thats not how I was taught. There are alot of fine players who were taught that way. I was not. I really do not want to get into a debate over this chordal notes vs scale notes.
You have a good one brother,

Dan

"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"
*************

You, Dan put this in not one, but TWO POSTS!

All I'm asking is ...

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

Explain this in chordal terms, or
whatever you need use to make it
make some sense.

I will try and use the scale sequence chart to explain

78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually.



So in a GMaj I would start walking down from 8,7,b5,5,b3,3

78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually.


So in a GMaj I would start walking down from 8,7,b5,5,b3,3
..................................

OK. So you played six notes:
8,7,b5,5,b3,3
7,8,b5,5,b3,3

Here you switched around the
first two notes, no problem.


Below here is question 4 that I
asked you 4 days ago!
_________________________________________
"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

7; 8; b5; 5; b3; 3; maj7; Root; ?

**************************
Question 4.
__________________________________________

... to which you responded with:
Question 3 4 and 5. dont understand ur question
......................................

"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

With regard to the above, what does the


@@@@@@@@@ " maj7Root " @@@@@@@@

portion of it mean ?

"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

7; 8; b5; 5; b3; 3; maj7; Root; ?

Oh I understand your question now. sorry lol.

THe Maj7th Chord note would be the closest one to the 3rd or b3rd thats in key. I was not using any paticular chord just as an example for any key your in.

"78 b55 b33 maj7Root coming down usually"

With regard to the above, what does the


@@@@@@@@@ " maj7Root " @@@@@@@@

portion of it mean ?


Wayne,

The Maj7th of the next measure. The intervals i mentioned are just notes that lead into the Maj7th of the next chord.