2 parts to a price; functionality & looks. I think the topic here wanders between the two.

Going from a top maple laminate grade A to grade AAAAA isn't going to make a lot of difference to your sound. Taking that $1400 & putting it on a SVT head will.

Good point Dave. A great amp will make a $100 Squier bronco bass sound amazing.

I totally agree Dave!

Sean ;)

another thing to consider is wood has different densities. one piece of ash my sound different than another. i have a p bass copy made from the same wood as a fender USA p bass and it has top of the line pups and hardware in it and it sounds nothing like a p bass, rather crappy actually.you can pretty much tell how a bass is going to sound without even plugging it in. so buy a cheap bass that sounds good unplugged and upgrade that.

All components of an instrument contribute to it's overall tone in varying degrees but for an electric bass the cut of wood, nevermind the species, will play a very small role. As for an expensive bass sounding better than a less costly one... that's a farce. An inexpensive bass can produce a tone that's pleasing to the ear if built and setup correctly however a boutique bass most likely will be more aesthetically pleasing to a majority of people and will be constructed to a higher standard and tighter tolerances.



My latest project (and very slowly progressing due to time constraints) is a 3 octave fretless. My goal when starting the project was to build a high quality instrument to gig with for less than $60 (tuners being the most expensive component) using only readliy available wood that just about anyone in the USA can buy from any home improvement store. I'm doing this to prove that an electric bass doesn't have to be made from costly and/or exotic tone woods just to sound good. It's a neck-through using red oak for the main stringers and body wings of pine. I'm following Steve Wishnevsky's design philosophy of minimizing non-wood (organic) components. I'm going to fit it with one of my mild-medium single-coil pickups in a j-bass' bridge pickup's position... slightly bridge side of the "sweet spot". I'm still not set on the fingerboard... I may just end up going with treated red oak but I'm keen on experimenting with bamboo flooring with a janka hardness that exceeds even IPE much less ebony. I hope to have it ready to gig in a few weeks and will post a recording of it on my site.

that bass your makin sounds killer!!! cant wait to see what it looks like. b sure to snap photos!

i disagree strongly about the wood. i can hear the difference in two identical basses plugged in or not just because of the wood. the p bass copy i have , built myself(well put together myself)has the exact same wood and pups and hardware as the american p bass i had and it sounds awful, the american sounded sweet.i also have a mocking bird copy that i tried everything with , active, passive, different brands of pups and it never sounds better than o.k.. i truely believe a denser piece of lumber sounds better . so no one can tell me wood has very little to do with it. sorry disagree with you on this one jens.

"the p bass copy i have , built myself(well put together myself)has the exact same wood and pups and hardware as the american p bass i had and it sounds awful, the american sounded sweet."

im confused,if both basses are the exact same wood etc. shouldnt they sound the same? they where just assembled by 2 different entitys.

if this is true, then i should be able to go down the line of basses @ guitar center, and play 5 of the same exact fender p-basses, and they should all sound different.

I think the key is in the "exact same wood" phrase.

I see a range of colour differences between fingerboards that all use Rosewood. If there are differences in colour there may well be other differences in the "exact same wood", like tonality.

Many factors to tonality, but I think the differences in label weight between Ibanez, Fender, Jay Turser, & Pedulla make very little total difference. I suspect the "exact same wood" isn't quite the exact same wood.

same species of wood but may not have the same tonal qualities from cut to cut. this is where quality control comes into play, density,color, grain,moisture content.

ooooh.k. is see clearly now about the wood, thanks for that.

my second question then is:

the pickups.

example: warwick uses MEC pickups, thats im guessing how you know a warwick growl when you hear one.

say you put those exact pickups in a cheaper bass, would the cheap bass then have growl and sound like a warwick?

wonder what the tonal ratio is between the pickup percentage, and body wood percentage. im willin to bet the pickup makes the bass what it is and how it sounds, not the name on the headstock. know what i mean?

sorry bout that, other posts posted why i was typing. i understand u can have the same wood with different density now to effect tone.

I don't personally think the tone of a bass comes from just one or two components. It's a combination of the woods, pups, bridge, nut, strings and, most importantly, the player and amp.

I generally agree with Jens that the body wood alone makes only a small difference. All other things being equal the difference between ash and walnut would be difficult to hear.

A cheap bass has not only cheap woods but cheap pups, bridge, nut etc.

Can you make a cheap bass sound as good as a boutique bass? I'd venture you could get pretty close assuming it was resonably made in the first place.

read this:

http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm

pickups will also make a difference.

wow, thanks Todd for the info. i now have the page saved in my computer!:^)

Strings are a huge factor. Playing style even more so. Listen to Tapes, Flats, Nickel Rounds, & Steel Rounds. Thumb pluck over the fingerboard then pick near the bridge. Or try the same plucking style with an open G & the E fretted at the 15th. There are a LOT of factors at play here.

Same pickups picking up the same input = same output. Get them in the same spot though.

I'd guess 80% pickup % 20% wood. No data though; just a guess.

Dunno bout Warwick...dpends on WHICH MEC pups they used. Even RockBass get MEC's (and they ain't exactly really cheap either)...

Warwick do state themselfs as being "The sound of wood" so I spose they do thinks more around the wood than hardware.

I like Warwicks stain finishes...much better than paint any day!

yeah a warwick would be a good example, for instance the rockbass: i owned this for about 3 days, i can say the bass wood looked good on it (almost looked identical to the corvette) but the tone of it was not a warwick wood growl tone. sounded more like any yamaha, fender, ibanez in that price range. yep, you get the cheaper pickups. but you jump up $700. you get the warwick wood tone.

hmmmm these higher end pick ups arnt no $700 bucks!!

no, same type of wood just different density. the one i assembled is lighter.

I'd worry if I found that everyone agreed with me. ;-)


As many others have stated before, the bottom line is that no matter what the bass is made of or what kind of hardware is attached to it... if the owner likes the sound it makes, then it's all good.
You should check this out for fun:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/755214/page/0/fpart/1.

Here's a quick link to hear how it sounds:
http://www.briantimpe.com/images/2xForce/screwy.mp3

now that's hilarious!!! it sorta sounds like an upright but still has that electric sound. not bad. it would sound different if it was maple, spuce i would think would give a warmer sound. i wonder how the neck will fair out being made of softwood?

that was hilarious! that bass gets 2 thumbs up in my book!!:^)

Good God!!!


Uhh, maybe I'd better retract my comment about you not trying a pine neck ; )

Good point. I can certainly tell the difference between EVEN cheap Fenders, and the American counterparts. The new American Fenders are amazing. They feel and sound much better then the S-1 version. The differences are subtle, but you can tell you're in for a treat by it's dry unplugged tone. I've had a LOT of basses. The P I have now is substantially better then ones I've had in the past.

by the way jens i'm ripping the pup and electronics from my ATK(don't really care for the sound)i'm going with a musicman pup and electronics. so if you ever need parts , they're here.

Thanks Todd. It sure is tempting but I have to keep myself and my habit of buying parts in check. I'll keep your pickup and pre-amp in mind though.

9/24/2008 9:33:29 AM
Todd Ingram (11031) wrote:
by the way jens i'm ripping the pup and electronics from my ATK(don't really care for the sound)i'm going with a musicman pup and electronics. so if you ever need parts , they're here.

BTW - have you tried rotating the stock ATK triple coil? Check out the tip at the bottom of my ATK 101 page. You may dig the results.
http://www.jz63.com/bass/ATK101.html

"As for an expensive bass sounding better than a less costly one... that's a farce."


I have to disagree with you on this. It has been my experience that cost does make a difference in playability and sound quality, at least to a point. Although I would agree that it is possible to get a cheaper bass that sounds and plays well, I am also sure that the higher priced units are setup better as a whole and have higher quality components. This is not to say that looks and name don't play a part in the final price, but I do believe that there is a difference between a "first act" bass and a custom shop fender.

This is not to say that it is impossible to build a high quality bass on the cheap. I believe that your example is a good one and will show the possibility. One most keep two things in mind when judging this, it is assumed that the long hours of work you will put into your $60 worth of parts will raise the value to a great degree. I assume that when you are done with the bass you are not going to turn around and sell it for $120 (cheap bass price), I might venture that you would not part with it for under $300 (medium priced bass). I would also point out the fact that the bass you are building is a very simple design. If you increased the pickups to two and tossed in an active EQ, we would see an increase in price, I would assume by around $200. This now brings us to the $500-600 range and most people start calling that higher dollar (although not boutique price by any mean).

I believe you said it best when you stated that the higher priced bass " will be constructed to a higher standard and tighter tolerances.". As in all manufacturing, this fact lends itself to the achievement of a better quality under most circumstances.

Good luck with your project bass, hope it turns out great.
DRoot

Disagree on setup. I view setup as a field adjustment & a highly personal one. But I also think the better the neck the lower you can get the action & that's all about built quality, even 10 years later (presuming you take care of the bass).

A bass should be shipped with a good "average" setup. Something landing at a music store with action rivalling an upright is cutting corners. Cutting corners anyone can easily see makes me wonder what other corners they cut.

Agreed, I was really trying to point out the degree of available setup. Thanks for pointing this out.
DRoot

Hopefully politely; I meant it so.

I can get behind "range of setup". It's impossible to get a good low setup with a bumpy neck.

It's funny because we often think of the odd fret noise as a bit of character in our instrument. The truth is that until you play a great neck it is hard to understand what is being talked about when people make these claims.
I have often felt that, although a master such as Jaco could have made any piece of junk sound good, many people are being held back because they have to fight their bass.
DRoot

I think Jaco could make any bass sing. But I also think Stewart Copeland could give a good drum line using stray pots & pans.

At times I don't mind a bit of fret clank. At times I kinda like it!! It's better as a choice though.

I firmly believe better tools make for better product. No one's going to do very much on a bass with the strings 1/2" high at the 12th fret, & I'm sure some have quit bass directly due to a lousy setup.

if you had 2 complete solid maple basses, 1 is a ibanez, the other a pedulla, could you make the ibanez sound like or somewhat close to a pedulla if you ordered the exact bridge and pickup for the ibanez?

i would set them up exactly the same, or as close as possible. both are fretless.

thanks in advance....

i'd just save up and buy the bass you want to copy, then you know you got the sound.

hmmmm. yeah you might be right. looks like youve tried this already....

i have an ibanez ATK 300 and it sounded good with active electronics but not my sound, i put a cheap(and i mean cheap) jazz bass pickup in it this morning just to see how it sounded and it still sounded great, nice heavey piece of wood with a 3 piece neck. that pickup sounded bad in everything else i had it in.

Cool! Where'd you put the pickup compared to the (2?) Fender Jazz bridge locations?

And those ATKs sure are heavy!!

i just stuck in the original pup hole. i'm going to do something more permanet later.

My ATK sure is heavier than anything else I own[ed] but you get used to it.

Hmmm. About an expensive bass sounding better than a less costly one being a farce .... I have to kindly disagree. I own an inexpensive bass (1982 Japanese built Fender Jazz) and a "boutique" bass (Roscoe LG3005) - trust me ; there's a difference. Although I love the sound of my Jazz, it's a far cry from the sound of the Roscoe.

On the other hand, once you start comparing high enders to one another, then the diffences become minimal and a matter of personal taste. I can't see a 100K Ritter sounding that much better than a Roscoe, Lakeland, Sadowsky, etc.

I think the price/quality isn't at all a linear scale. A $400 bass will be worlds better than a $200 one, but not so with a $2400 & a $2200. Even $2400 & $1200 won't show as much difference.

Yeah cause more time would be spent on the $400 over the $200 (100 bass OUCH!!!)...

But after about 500-750...seriously I cannot work it out.

It must be labour charges extreme man cause other than wood, in making my bass the way I want it even the most expensive parts I consider cheap.
Pickups, Bridges, hardware...not that expensive!
Not even the BadAss II bridge...not even DIMarzio pickups (Will Power costs 90 and that's IT!).

But I digress...I also feel shops make too much profit. Take the Urge II (again :-D)...Sells for, in shops, between 1100-1300...No WAY are Fender churning out basses that cost that much to build...I bet the shop buy it for 600 say and add's on for profit...I know these day in the UK shops add 50% for profit...first hand!

Wait that reads stupid HAHA!
I mean shops add on MEGA profit...not some...HAHA shops would not be if things sold the same price bought...

Damn...can someone here get access to bass warehouses?
I sunno...maybe a Macro jobbie?

Yeah, when you're talking 2K + price range, there's not much difference. A few subtlties here and there, but that's about it.

Marcus Hart (12957) wrote:
"Hmmm. About an expensive bass sounding better than a less costly one being a farce .... I have to kindly disagree."

I guess what I finally need to do is record 10 riffs on my pine/oak bass with a self made pickup and the exact same 10 riffs on a boutique bass and see if people here can determine which recordings were played on which bass. I guarantee that nobody will be able to decipher them with any regularity. The fact is that what people perceive as being "better" sounding is purely subjective and in most cases is also falsely equated with higher cost. People tend to present cause as a result of effect... that is, a bass sounds better because it's expensive... the heretic was a witch because the god-fearing citizens burned her alive. ;-)

On top of this you must question, does ANYONE listen that deep?

So I listen to my favourite artists...the song is awesome and I think "Hmmm he's got some good wood"....HAHAHAHAAAA!!!

You think of the tone...of the warmth, of the growl, the bite, the "tin can" tone or the clanking of the strings...More often than not I listen to the metal side of the tone "Hmmm those strings sound deep!"...but not often...usually on one note of a song.

But that's on recording...again that's an engineers work almost 50% as it is the artists gear. I've had my old RBX170 engineered before, when I was REALLY poor in college...sounded AWESOME!!!

have you ever watched a band live and they were not as heavy sounding live than on cd? or the singer wasnt hitting any of the notes? thats what a recording engineer can do for you. they are the band aid kings of music. they can shift music to make it in time, change your tone etc.

but what about crunch time when its infront of 100 people or more? and you have other bass players in the crowd watchin you who r critics.

hmmm. id perfer to spend time gettin my own tone down. that way i can just tell them to mike my cab up.

Noone would mic your cab up live...at least not in my experience...it's always DI'd and the worst thing is almost all amps get their EQ bypassed and engineers don't take "Sound requests"...

Well here's an engineering trick...if you can;t get a part "ultra fluid" they can get you to just play say 2 bars or so of it, then the next and seamlessly glue them together.

Ever heard all those slick, perfectly smooth licks?
I'm not saying it's not possible but most of the time it's engineered...That's why folks complain on youtube why thier players sound sloppy when interviewed.

yeah, our engineer had to move/shift riffs in some spots on our cd cause our drummer slightly messed up timing changes in a few spots when he recorded. sucks being a drummer cause its a 1 take deal for them. also it was kind of a glue and paste thing if transfers from one riff to another was sloppy. guitars and bassest dont have to play a song perfect all the way through in one take like musicians did in the 60's.

also, i bet if you requested to mic your rig they should do it. they do it for guitar players at every show iv played. i usually run distorted cab miced and clean cab direct. never had a problem with any sound guy not running a mic to my rig. unless there out of mics, which the venues we play it is rare.

Yeah that kind of thing drives me insane! I PROMISE you on our CD we played EVERYTHING and sang EVERYTHING! There is no fixing something when you are recording with an analog 8-track reel to reel.

I ran live sound for a lot of years. I have miked a bass player from time to time but there are a few problems with it live. First, when a soundman mikes a guitar cab what does he do? Chances are he throws an Sure SM-57 tight on the grill. Perfect! That's what live soundmen do. You try to get as close to the sound source as you can to get the hottest signal possible. To mike your bass cab a soundman tosses a B-52, Senn 421 or whatever mike on your cab. There's something called "proximity effect" which occurs the closer you get to a sound source. Basically you get a boost around 200Hz the closer you get to the sound source. Now for my ears proximity effect is easier heard on guitar or a vocal mic and not as drastic miking a bass cab. However, even a little is a bad thing for a bass. 200Hz is a HORRIBLE frequency for bass generally speaking. So, by tossing a mic on your grill even with a LITTLE proximity effect I just made you sound worse. Now I'm back at the board and I realize that you have no balls at all. Not you personally but your sound. I naturally grab 100Hz which is a GREAT frequency for bass generally speaking and I twist a little... then a little more.... then a little more.... but I just can't seem to give you the low end I desire. Now I don't want too much low end in the bass. I don't want you down there at 63Hz where I have the kick drum boosted and I'm shaking the building and every patrons insides. Everything in the mix needs it own space. If I get too much low end in the bass your bass and the kick drum will be fighting for the same frequency space. The end result will be lack of definition for either the kick or the bass and a muddy sound. Now all of this is dependent on the size of the room your in as well. If you are in a small club I can toss a mic on your cab and not have to really worry. I'll get plenty of low end from your stage volume. But, in the big club it's an issue. The reason I can't get the low end out of you is that low end waves take a little time and space to develop. The cure is to move your mic back away from the cab 18" to 2'. Now I have some low end but I also have a ton of background stage noise. The drummer in the failing marriage taking his frustration out on drums and cymbals, The alcoholic guitar player who keeps turning up, the Rock Star singer who cheated on his wife last gig, are all bleeding into your mic. That's why microphones are frowned upon for bass live. That's why you get a direct box. Ideally it would be nice to mic the cab tight on the grill AND have the D.I. But, no soundman in their right mind is going to do that live myself included.

If you want an example of a microphone tight on a bass grill you can check out a song I wrote and recorded that way called "Thunder and Lightning" on my Myspace page. That was recorded one take with a Sennheiser 421 tight on the grill. I wanted a thinner sound for that song because of all the chords and it seemed to work OK. I wish I would have pulled it back about a foot, and actually should have done another take. Sadly there was just no time as we were under the gun to get it done. But, if nothing else it's a good example of the sound of a microphone tight to the grill on a bass.

"Sound Requests?

Musicians worry about their own sound but a soundman worries about the band's sound. A good soundman does what is best for the mix and not the musician. Now I've worked with a lot of talented people who knew what they were talking about and doing, and a lot that didn't. It's a coin toss.

I was doing sound for a band one night and I started getting this feedback just south of 1kHz. I knew right away it wasn't the mains. The sound was something like REEEEEEEEEEET! I listened to it a few times REEEEEEEEEEET! REEEEEEEEEEET! I couldn't for the life of me tell where it was coming from other than the stage. REEEEEEEEEEET! Ok process of elimination! REEEEEEEEEEET! It must be the monitors! REEEEEEEEEEET! monitor one! REEEEEEEEEEET! monitor two! REEEEEEEEEEET! three!! REEEEEEEEEEET! FOUR!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! It's not the monitors! REEEEEEEEEEET! It must be one of the guitarists! REEEEEEEEEEET! It's not guitar one! REEEEEEEEEEET! It's not guitar two!! REEEEEEEEEEET! DAMN I WHISH THIS BOARD HAD LED'S!!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! LOOK AT THE RACK GENIUS! REEEEEEEEEEET! NOTHING'S PEAKING!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! It can't be the drums!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! There's no WAY it's the drums!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! Ok I'll check the drums?!?!?!?! REEEEEEEEEEET! HAT? REEEEEEEEEEET! SNARE! REEEEEEEEEEET! RACK ONE! REEEEEEEEEEET! RACK TWO!! REEEEEEEEEEET! RACK THREE!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! FLOORS!!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! KICK!!!!!!!!!!! REEEEEEEEEEET! I ran through everything and I could not for the life of me find where in the Hell it was coming from. In desperation I turned to my drummer who was with me and asked him "WHERE IN THE HELL IS IT COMING FROM!!!! When you start asking a drummer about sound you know things are bad! I ran through everything again to double check myself. For the first time since I was a baby soundman I could not for the life of me figure out where this feedback was coming from. Finally I walked up on stage... YES while the band was performing. I stood in front of the drummer in the center of the stage facing him. REEEEEEEEEEET! My head snapped right! REEEEEEEEEEET! I walked in front of the bass and guitar cab. REEEEEEEEEEET! IT'S THE FREEKING BASS PLAYER!!!!! UN-FREEKIN-BELIEVABLE!!!! He had a graphic EQ and I walked up and grabbed the one high mid frequency he had cranked and brought it to the floor! I went through everything in the mix EXCEPT the bass! I never even suspected it! I gave the bass player a dirty look and said "DIDN'T YOU HEAR THAT FEEDBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He just looked at me and I walked off stage thinking what a moron he was. So, always remember, for every guy who knows what they are doing with their tone their is one of these idiots out there.

Dave

As always, you are a WEALTH of information Bro!

I particularly enjoyed this:

"In desperation I turned to my drummer who was with me and asked him "WHERE IN THE HELL IS IT COMING FROM!!!! When you start asking a drummer about sound you know things are bad!"

Now I'm no genius, but that makes good sense to me! LOL!

Griz........ ;)

Yeah my drummer was pretty surprised by the question. Oddly enough he had no answer.....hehehehe!

: )

Dave

I'm shocked!!!!

Hahahahaha!

Griz........ ;)

very well said, the mic in the speaker does take a little of the low end out. but it also depends on the overall sound your lookin for. the 1 cab i do mike,but i like the tone where you can hear clickity click/slight grindy tone from my cab, usually the venues we play ther cabs wont sound like mine if i run direct through their cabs. behind it is a super clean low end. thats why i run 1 cab direct (for low end clean) and 1 micked (for mid distortion growl/clickity clicks.

guess its a personal preference thing.

that dude with the feed back cracks me up!LMAO!!! ha ha reeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!

Sound can be subjective for sure. I recorded that one song with a just a mic and then all the rest were done with a mic and a D.I.

hummmm... maybe I should start miking my cab live too along with the D.I. Man my soundman is going to LOVE me next gig....LOL!

Yeah you get more "attack" from a mic. I love the attack you get from a mic on a bass.

: )

Dave

that's the first time i ever heard of a bass player getting that type of feedback.

It was the first and last time I ever heard it! That's why I couldn't track it down. I didn't even think a bass cab could produce such feeback. Live and learn!

Dave

that's not a test for tone that's just to see what bass was recorded. take 10 different basses and some will sound close to the same but some will sound completely different. that has nothing to do with which bass is which. ampeg sounds different from trace eliot, which sounds better, ampeg to me but maybe not someone else. take 10 basses plug them in with flat EQ on the same amp and i'll tell you what bass i think sounds the best.might be the most exspensive one but i'll guarrante it will not be the $200 plywood bass.

I'm with Todd. "Better" forks down two paths; one is the objective & the other is the subjective. Him & I disagree about which is better, Ampeg & Trace, but actually we don't; what we disagree completely on is which is better FOR ME. We might both PERSONALLY hate a Walter Woods but neither of us will call it a bad amp.

Subjective goes broad. I might prefer a $600 5 string over a $2500 4 string. Todd might fall in love with a Squire Jazz while deeply hating an American Deluxe P due to the flatwounds on it.

Objective goes broad too. Quality might turn me from that $600 5'er & send Todd away from the Squier. It renders us unlikely to buy Behringer.

Your trial results might be illuminating, but I'll bet if you trial your hand-made bass with one I make yours will win every time.

Don't know about wood being neutral. I think there is a very good reason you have an oak neck & pine wings & not vice versa.

Also, "self made pickup"; you make your own?!? Cool!!!!!

You correct that I chose oak over pine for the neck because it's stiffer for the neck width I want. Sure I can use pine like the guy I linked to in a previous comment in this thread but I want a neck that'll be strong enough in a size I can live with that is smaller than a 2"X4". But the point I'm trying to make here is that a bass can be made of an inexpensive species of wood and still sound great. Bassists have been so brain-washed into thinking that an electric bass needs to be made of the best cuts of exotic woods to sound great that they dismiss basses made of "lesser" woods as toys or inferior to basses made of more expensive woods. Whether recorded or played live the sound of a bass is colored so much by the electronics that the wood is rendered almost insignificant. That's the basis of my argument and the purpose of my project. Whether I put 400 hours into building my latest project and wouldn't sell it for anything less than $2,000 is immaterial... the fact that it will sound great yet be made out of inexpensive wood is the point I'm arguing here.

And yes, I machine my own bobbins, use neo magnets and wind my own coils which I then pass off as pickups. It's merely something I enjoy doing for the sake of experience and knowledge.

Point WELL taken about woods. I do think that going from good to great wood gets you a lot less than going from lousy to good.

I'd be VERY interested to hear of experimentations in pickup winding should you wish to share them sometime.

this Todd guy sound like a smart fellow !!!LOL

Other than the 4 string & Ampeg fixations, he sure is ; )

Ha Ha

I was turned onto Roscoe while visitng a music store in Atlanta. I had NEVER ever heard of the brand ... let alone knowing that it was a boutique bass. None of the instruments had price tags hanging on them, so I had no clue as to what it cost. However, based upon how it "felt" and the clean look of the construction, I figured that it had to cost more than what I had. When I plugged that puppy in and played it ...... daaammmn! Let's just say that I spent well over an hour playing that bass ( as my wife was starting to get impatient and tired of waiting. hehe! ). And I knew without a doubt that this bass sounded better than what I was currently playing ( and still play ). AGAIN, I had NO CLUE as to what it cost. After I managed to take my hands off of the instrument and put it back on it's rack, I got around to asking about pricing, etc. THAT'S when I found out that this was a high end bass. Couldn't affort it at the time. But I knew that I had to have one. Many years later and much saving, goal achieved.

My desire for the bass was based SOLELY upon the way it sounded. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it played as smooth as butter. I didn't go into the store for the specific purpose of trying a high end bass. As a matter of fact, my wife and I just stumbled upon the store while visiting friends up in ATL, so I really had no intentions on buying anything. I just wanted to check out the music store. And I left the store with a servere case of gas that was not going to go away until I found a way to make it go away.

I do a little session work in Dothan, Al. on occasion. And every time .... read again : EVERY TIME, the recording engineer asks me to bring the "brown bass with the slanted pickups" (the Roscoe). He intially had no clue as to what it was. He just liked the way it recorded and liked to way it sounded.

In addition to an R&B band, I play with a jazz quartet. When I first bought the Roscoe to a gig, the sax player (front man) asked me where was my cream colored bass (my jazz). He was used to the Fender sound. After hearing it, he insisted that I bring the "tiger bass" to the gigs (he says it looks like tiger stripes because of the flamed maple top ). He's one of those guys who could care less about how much it cost or what brand it is - tech talk and all of the blah blah is meaningless to him. All he knows is that he likes the way it sounds..... and he likes it better than the cream colored bass.

The fact the a recording tech and a band leader both PREFER the Roscoe over my other basses suggets that there's a difference. Big difference, small difference ; I don't know what they're thinking. But the fact that they have a clear preference is undenyable.

i know what you mean about the high end basses and there sound. i recently bought a pedulla this year and had know idea i was going to make a bass purchase. well here i stand with this pedulla bass and it makes my other basses sound like poo so much that i dont even want my other basses as back up for gigs. i cant afford another which is the reason for this post. hmmmmm how to modify as close as possible, thers gotta b a way!!

So, how can you choose a pickup without hearing it? Well, the truth is, you never really hear what a pickup sounds like until it's in your guitareven listening to the same pickup in a different guitar won't tell you. The secret to making an informed choice is to answer a few questions about your guitar and your playing style, then combine that with the information here.

Start by putting on a fresh set of strings and play the guitar unplugged to get an idea of what you have to work with. Does the instrument sustain well? Is it clear and loud, or more subdued? Does it have strong bass or a bright treble response? Taking stock of the natural qualities of your guitar will help you decide what pickup bests suits the strong points of the instrument, and which may enhance its shortcomings. Also pay close attention to your set-up. While low action and slinky strings are easy to play, they do little for the tone of the instrument. Rememberthe acoustic sound is the heart of your amplified tone!

Know how you want to define your sound. After you know what you have to work with, you need to know where you want to be. Once you are familiar with the guitar's acoustic tone, take note of what you dislike about the amplified sound. Do you need more gain or sustain? Is your sound brittle or too warm? If the guitar has powerful bass acoustically, and sounds muddy when plugged in, then you may not have a pickup best suited to your instrument. It is also extremely important to consider your amplifier. Even the best sounding guitar with the proper pickup will sound poor through an inferior amplifier. To be sure, try your guitar through several different ampsand use good quality guitar cables! The extra money spent on quality cables will help prevent degradation of your sound. Try to keep your cable under 15ft. The longer the cord, the more signal and high-end fidelity you lose on the way to the amp. Some of the really expensive cables are better suited to longer lengths; so, if you need to have the distance, spare no expense on cables!


Figure 1 is an exploded view of a basic Gibson style humbucker. Click on the image for a larger view.


Now it's time to get an idea of what makes one pickup sound different from another. Figure 1 is an exploded view of a basic Gibson style humbucker. A humbucker is nothing more than two single coil pickups (think Fender Stratocaster) joined under the right circumstances to make it immune to 60 cycle hum (that annoying buzz often heard from fluorescent lights.) However, when comparing the sound of pickups it is important not to compare single coils to humbuckers. Both have a tone unique to their design that makes it difficult to compare one to the other, but the basic construction of a single coil is a lot like half of a humbucker.

Manufacturers have different ways of evaluating sound; but, for the sake of simplicity, we will only concern ourselves with two basic aspects that should be readily known: the magnet type, and D.C. resistance.

The magnet is the heart of a pickup, and the source of the character of the pickup. As a string vibrates in the flux field created by the magnetization of the polepieces, an alternating current is created and sent through the coil windings to be interpreted by your amplifier as sound. That's oversimplified, but it's all a player really needs to know about the technical operation of a pickup.

The three most common magnets are Alnico II, Alnico V, and Ceramic. Occasionally you may encounter an Alnico III. These where the magnets used in original Fender pickups from the early 50's (they have used the other magnets as well through the years.) If you are looking for an authentic vintage Fender tone, search for a pickup with Alnico III's. Alnico stands for the basic composition of the magnet: aluminum, nickel, and cobalt. Ceramic are a combination of iron and several rare Earth materials. Alnico II is a warm sounding magnet that produces a smooth midrange and good sustain. Alnico V is stronger and produces a glassy high end with good bass response. Ceramic magnets are the most powerful of the three, and have an aggressive voice with good treble and punchy bass. In general, Alnico II's are good for instruments that lack low end, and Alnico V's are good for instruments that tend to sound muddy. Like Alnico V's, ceramics are also good for bass heavy guitars, but are better suited for players who need high output and more distortion.

Next comes D.C. resistance. DC resistance is determined by the number of turns of wire around the coil, and the diameter of that wire. This is measured in ohms, and gives a general idea of the overall output and tone of a pickup. A higher D.C. resistance can mean a higher output pickup, but as this number increases the treble response decreases, and midrange is boosted. A low resistance pickup may sound clean and bright, but will lack the punch of a higher rated pickup. Conversely, a really hot pickup may lack clarity and a solid clean tone. Combine these rules with the characteristics of the magnet, and you can form a basic assumption of the pickup's tone. For example, a pickup with a ceramic magnet rated at 12K ohms would have the gain and hard edge a heavy rock player would appreciate, while a pickup at 6K ohms with an Alnico V would be better suited for a jazz or blues player.

Other points to keep in mind when choosing a new pickup are metal covers, and control pots. Adding a metal cover may warm a brittle pickup, while removing the cover may brighten a muddy pickup. Furthermore, lowering the value of a pot(s) can fatten the tone, while increasing value brightens the tone. Most humbuckers use a 500K ohm potentiometer, while single coils commonly use 250K ohm. It is also important to keep in mind where the pickup is on the guitar. The closer a pickup gets to the bridge, the brighter it sounds, and the closer it moves toward the neck the more bass it has. A string also has a tighter vibration pattern toward the bridge than the neck; so, consequently, it is quieter through the pickup. To compensate for these differences, you often find bridge pickups that are wound to a hotter DC resistance than pickups in other positions.

These guidelines will offer a prediction of the basic sound of a pickup, but so much goes into creating the mystery of tone that it is hard to be 100% accurate. However, armed with some basic knowledge and a good idea of what your sound is lacking, choosing a pickup you've never heard can be more than a role of the dice.

alot of good info there Todd, didnt think it would be so complex to make a cheaper version of a bass. looks like you would have to completely tear into the one you want to copy to figure it out. and even if you did that, theres no guarentee it will even sound similar.

hmmmmmmmm very big second thoughts now.......

Good write-up. Several other factors that play a part in how a pickup will sound is the size/shape of the coil/winding. I tall thin coil will tend to sound clearer than a flatter wider one which tends to add meat to the tone... examples being a j-bass coil vs a p-bass coil. Also wire coatings vary in thickness so a coil made with poly-coated wire will sound differently than Formvar coated wire of the same resistance. Also machine winding vs hand winding will have an effect on tone. But of course this is all academic.

I gave this some more thought and I think I see your point. I (and probably many others) equate sound with playability, this is in fact wrong. The playability of a bass is a secondary issue to it's sound. The truth is that given strings of similar quality and a neck that is fretted properly (two things that can be achieved even on the cheapest bass) it would stand that a person could get a similar sound quality. This also assumes that the rest of the rig is the same.
Given this I believe your original statement is correct. I would continue to argue that the higher dollar bass will more likely play better. That is to say it will have a better feel and will lend itself to ease of play given a desired setup, and will hold that setup more consistently, at least this has been my experience.
DRoot