It is so sad. Until this shooting, the US's worst was in Killeen, TX which is a town 4 miles from my hometown of Copperas Cove. Its kinda' like deja vu. I pray for healing, both emotional & physical for those affected by this.

i have a hard time understanding how a person is able to shoot a gun so many times in public without getting tackled...

without challenging the gravity of the situation, our lifestyle sponsors more extreme number of deaths on a daily basis... compassion is a wonderful concept but it shouldn't be subject to who the victims are...

i was very upset with the stress put on the fact that the gunman was not an American and had only recently received his visa. The kind of irresponsible media coverage that evokes negative feelings towards a concept that really didn't have anything to do with the actual shooting, ethnicity...

inconsequentially,
my condolences to any and all involved

My friend, the gunman shot two people as a diversion, waited two hours, and then walked into a classroom to do most on his shooting. The gunman shot the instructor, then the students. The gunman did not care who he was shooting, he shot a custodian who was helping someone the gunman had already shot. A steady hand did this deed, no Saturday-Nite Special.

The reason that there is an issue over the shooters ethnicity and nationality is due to the fact that all the past incidents like this the shooters have all been white Americans.

More to the point the shooters have always been people with guns.

I hate to bring this up, but why do Americans not seem to get that guns are not a right, but a weapon?

Just had to respond to the question "Why do Americans think that guns are a right?" I guess it would be because in the U.S., the right to own a gun (weapon) is in fact a right under our constitution. I don't think anyone has ever argued that a gun isn't a weapon...

I understand what is written in the constitution, but 'the right to own a gun' is a ridiculous statement in any document (imho).
I also understand that the weapons are licensed, but it still stands that the more guns there are, the more people get shot.

You are an idiot...

Rick, come on. Ben is a good guy. He just believes different than some of us. Its cool. Its just opinions.

Don't come on, me.I stated facts, not OPINION!!!!! It is NOT COOL to highjack a heartfelt post and turn it into an gun owner bashing. I've got more,ALL FACTS. I suggest this stops before I really get started. Just because someone believes something DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE

Hey, I agree with you on our right to bear arms. I'm just saying we aren't going to change anyone's mind here and it just isn't worth the fight. Lets just let it end here. Don't be drawn into a dispute that is pointless.

I don't recall asking anyone if it was worth the fight. I find it very offensive that someone that does not even live in this country calls our Constitution a "ridiculous statement". Some people find breasts offensive, I find ignorance offensive. It is NOT a pointless dispute. FACTS vs. OPINION!!!!!

You are right Rick. You never asked us if it was worth the fight. So if you are through swinging your unit around, please take your dispute to the PM system and argue to your hearts content.

Rick and Ivan, I have PM'ed you both. But, I guess you know that already.

I haven't yet received it.

I'll resend.

Better yet, go to the site for the Roanoke Gunshop and read it there.

Whats the link?

http://roanokefirearms.com/

I think that was really well said. Thanks for posting it Mike.

Dave

You are most welcomed.

Thanks for the link Mike. The guy is absolutely right too.

You're welcome Ivan.

Thanks Ivan....:o)

Don't need you to tell me what to do ,Ivan. You are the one who keeps on throwing fuel on the fire. At least I am man enough to stand for what I believe in,unlike some of us, huh?

Then I'll leave you he-men to your manliness.

Ivan,

I have known Rick my whole life. He is my best friend in the world! I would litterally take a bullet for the man. As much as I have tried to let this go I simply can't.

I'm am glad you spoke up Ivan. While Rick has been swinging his unit around 9 members of Activebass were knocked from their chairs (myslef included). Others felt a breeze from Rick's swinging unit of up to 40 m.p.h. Rick's unit was spotting swinging by a zoo and rumor has it that it made a rhinoceros blush. Rick's swinging unit has been spotted in two zip codes........... at the same time! There is even speculation that John Holmes did not die of aids, but died of embarrassment after cathing a glimps of Rick's swinging unit.


"So if you are through swinging your unit around,"

Ivan, I laughed for two days over that comment. I called Rick and we were laughing so hard I had to wipe tears from my eyes....ROFLMAOx2!

: )

Dave

Hahahah - I had to ask someone who lives in the US what "swinging your unit around meant"

Here, a "unit" is a big truck and trailer rig!

So, I had trouble picturing someone swinging that around!

....now, I know better.

: )

Mo

ROFLMAO!!! More tears....LMAO!!!!

: )

Dave

not much swinging going on around here but one can only hope!!!LOL

Aye....there's a limit to how much one can swing with a pair of tweezers.

LOL

Mo

Well, I had to be polite :^D

Looks like we have a mess in isle 5 Ivan!

LOL ROTFLMAO

Sorry if I sound so aggressive on this, but I think you'll find most Brits cannot fathom the American obsession with guns. A sweeping generalisation I know, but not entirely inaccurate.

That point in our constitution was put in there because of the fear of another invasion of the country and our military was still a civilian militia way until the 1820's. The other reason - that is politically incorrect to say (but is very true) - an armed civilian militia keeps a government from getting tyrannical with its citizens. This was a very big factor in the thinking of our early fore-fathers. How does a guy with documented mental illness get to purchase a gun, car, or anything dangerous is beyond me.

that second point you make is vital to the understanding of law and often forgotten... i believe it was Jefferson that said that it is not only a person's right to defy an unjust government, but duty.

it is a very strong trend in most transitions of government structure to "tyrannical" that the right to bear arms goes first... Brazil, my country of origin, which was under a military dictatorship over the 70's (supported financially by no other than the USA) voted against the banning of civilian gus last year...

Time to back of this subject please Ben.

Mo

It is EXACTLY what won our freedom from opression from the nation that was once our landlord. It's also the reason why YOU and your countrymen don't speak German and have a Swastica hanging from your window.

That being said what you did here was wrong Ben. My responding here makes me no better. However, you REALLY should have started another post if you wanted to talk gun control. Quite honestly we in the USA do not TRULY respect your opinion on the matter. It IS our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to own guns. It's not opinion. However, I feel that we both share the same opinion on one thing. "We don't want to see people needlessly killed with guns". If this happened in your coutry our hearts would bleed for your coutrymen that needless lost thier lives. I honestly don't feel that the USA would take the "Holier than thou" attitude. You can not come on here and honestly expect to offend an entire NATION and not get a reponse. I think you are smart enough to know that. Or am I giving you too much credit?

My heart goes out to the families and friends who have been affected by this tragic incedent. This has been truly horrific. My prayers go out to them.

Dave

You're giving him too much credit. He refered to our nations Constitution as a "rediculous statement". Strong words from a punk whose country was bailed out in WWII by the USA.

'Strong words from a punk whose country was bailed out in WWII by the USA.'

Seeing as you're keen on FACTS, can you point me to the correct historical record that states this fact? Jeezus, next you'll be calling us Limeys...

Getting back on track for a moment, my prayers go out to all affected by this recent nightmare in Virginia.

It was actually us ANZACZ ( Kiwis and Aussies ) who bailed you Poms guys out.......both wars too......

: )

naaa...j/k it was a group effort by all.

I think we all need to lighten up a bit here though.

Mo

Hell, we'd take help from the Boy Scouts if we had to....heh heh heh.

Amen to the lightening up...

I can't either, but in reality I own 3 myself and I have a concealed weapons permit..:P

I have a replica Civil-war 1851 Colt that is a black-powder shot. But we have 2 compound bows that we (my 3 boys & I) love to shoot. It sounds stupid, but I love my wrist rocket the most :^D

Okay, I really was gonna stay out of this one, BUT...
I just wanted to point out the irony of our (in the USA) Constitutional right to bear arms and the local laws (at least here in NYC) that prohibit us from purchasing, carrying and/or keeping firearms. Even when I owned a business and carried lots of cash on my person at night and alone, I was still unable to get a license to purchase, carry or keep a gun because it's against the law here. I carried pepper spray and my Swiss Army knife, but I somehow doubt either would have been very effective (unless a mugger happened to have a bottle of wine that needed uncorking).
Also, I don't know how accurate the stats are, but I have heard that in Canada it is legal to own and carry a gun, yet they have an extremely low rate of murders caused by guns.

Anyone have any real info on this?

Thats because much of our judicial system isn't geared to uphold the law of the land as much as the political views of the area.

I think there's something a bit wonky about that! You would think that the law is the law. But then I remember there are some incredibly huge differences between federal, state and local laws, oftentimes contradictory. If I move to another state, could I be arrested for doing something I do every day here?!

Jen wrote : I have heard that in Canada it is legal to own and carry a gun, yet they have an extremely low rate of murders caused by guns.

Hi Jennifer...
We are allowed to own guns but we need to have a Firearms Aquisition Certificate.
Bassically what that is is a licence to own and/or purchase firearms.
To obtain this certificate,we must complete and pass the Canadian Firearms Safety Course.
To obtain a handgun,we must complete a seperate course along with the Firearms Safety Course.
Both of these have substantial fees attached.
If you are looking to use the firearms for hunting (long guns only...handguns can only be used legally at a range) then you must complete and pass a Hunter Safety Course.
The police also do background checks on you.

So,all that said,we as Canadian citizens cannot carry a gun at all times.
Handguns can only be brought "directly to and from a range" and you need proper paperwork for that.
Also,when transporting said handgun it must be locked with a trigger lock and inside a locked gun case.
Long guns are generally used during the hunting season,but must be in a gun case while in transport....no pickup rear window gunracks here
;)

Of course I'm speaking about Nova Scotia...each province has it's own perculiars regarding the firearms laws...but there are NO provinces that allow handgun carry (other than to and from a gun range...with proper paperwork)

Now,that said,I suppose one could illegally do it,I know I've been rabbit hunting with a buddy of mine who routinely brings his .22 semi auto handgun
lol
It's GREAT for me,cause he can't hit running rabbits with it
*grins*
But I wouldn't want to be in his shoes if he ever got caught
:)

I'm unsure of the murder per capita rate...suppose I'll have to Google that one,but I think it's pretty low....at least I think so....not sure.

As of right now,ALL guns have to registered with the National Firearms Registry...they are trying to abolish the long gun registry,but that's a whole nother debate

So there's a little Canadian gun law info for ya
Hope it helps
:D
Peace Ed

Hhihihi That is why I do not have firearms what so ever...to complicated and I do not hunt or fish...

the only firing that I am doing is with the Air Force folks that are deploying for peace keeping and that is done in our firing range in Granville.
I do not need a permit for that one.....?????


Cheers.....

J_F.

What kind of gun would you use to Fish J_F?



D Silbag!

If you want a lot of fish ....apparently dynamite does a pretty good job in a fishing hole....

hahahah

J_F.

cheers.

Having said all that Ed I don't think you'd have to look very hard to buy one illegally. hahahaha

And what did that gun registry cost us? No don't answer, I don't want to remember.

Hahahahaha..... I forgot about the cost??????

Me too I do not want to remember...


J_F.

cheers...

lol
Like I said...whole nother debate
:P

Pretty easy actually to buy one illegally...I figured I wouldn't even explain that route,since we's all laww abidding citizens here at AB,y'all
;)

Very interesting Eddie! Thanks for the education. I was thinking about exactly where I heard the info and then I remembered it was from a documentary (you could call it a propaganda film, I guess). Just goes to show how you can present 'facts' in such a way as to imply something completely different from the 'whole truth'. Ugh!

Gotta love propaganda
Frikkin gov't
Don't get me started Missy
;)

Actually, Ed it was Farenheit 9/11. I just didn't want to stir a new pot up.

*grins*
Propaganda is propagated by all sides...
LOL
Too easy to stir the pot here
:D
Peace Ed

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
the united states does not rely on militias for security, therefore the second amendment no longer protects the ownership of arms...

Lucas,

My understanding of this amendment is that the right to bear arms was put in place to provide the people for protection (in part, at least) from their own government, should it become tyrannical. It was not solely the use of private arms in militias for state security.

There is still plenty of room for argument as to the relevance of this amendment in today's world, but I have a high degree of confidence, we will not come to consensus here on AB.

Peace,
Bill

i agree on the importance over gun control.. and as an active pacifist i am against it

that might have confused you...
but i definitely agree with you and even said so in a different comment..
peace

"My understanding of this amendment is that the right to bear arms was put in place to provide the people for protection (in part, at least) from their own government, should it become tyrannical."

Now where did I put my bullets?!?!?

"I have a high degree of confidence, we will not come to consensus here on AB."

Absolutly Bill... or anywhere for that matter.

Dave

Actually Lucas, the second amendment means what ever the courts interpret it to mean. They have consisitantly come down on the side of the law abiding gun owner.

This from the constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (where I live) is more to the point:

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
- Pennsylvania Constitution, Section

And owing to the politcal nature of this debate I will now bow out!

Actually Lucas, the second amendment means what ever the courts interpret it to mean. They have consisitantly come down on the side of the law abiding gun owner.

This from the constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (where I live) is more to the point:

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
- Pennsylvania Constitution, Section 21

And owing to the politcal nature of this debate I will now bow out!

You can say that again!....oh wait...you just did.

Sorry for the repeat.

Mike,

I hope you know I was joking with you!

Bill

Yeah, it's OK. It is just that I now noticed it after seeing your post.

Don't start, dude. You lovely country has a higher per capita crime rate than the United States, and guns are outlawed there. The Second Amendment IS A RIGHT. Don't start a conversation you don't have the knowledege to finish.

This debate is out of place here and will profit no one. Lets just agree that not everyone believes the same things as those of us who uphold that right.

You lovely country has a higher per capita crime rate than the United States, and guns are outlawed there

Rick, you are incorrect on this point. As far as murders per capita the US comes in at #24 and the UK comes in at #46. Reference

Murders with firearms, the US is #8, the UK is #32.

Drug offenses: US #4, UK #12.

Rape: US #9, UK #13.

Need I go on?

BTW Rick, I'm only correcting the one point. I'm not taking sides on gun control nor criticising the US or it's policies.

There is no doubt that we have a higher crime rate than many other countries (in some categories). The problem with alot of freedom is that it also gives greater opportunity for mischief. The only way to counter the later is to whittle away at the first. To what degree either way is the stuff of great debate.

I would argue, if I was arguing, that the UK has as much freedom as the US. I'm simply pointing out that the bald statement that the US has a lower crime rate than the UK is, by nearly any measure, not true.

And if I was arguing (and I'm not), I would disagree with you on your first point. But this is definitely not the place for that.

Hmmmmm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I figure if you can vote, speak your mind, expect a fair trial and ultimately move if you aren't satisfied, makes you pretty free.

Care to reiterate, Paul ?

I'm not trying to be a prick but if I am wrong prove it. I don't have a problem with being told I am wrong. IF I indeed am.

He said "Crime" Paul:
crime per capita

I was in all honesty surprised as well. I would have never guessed. Some of the Countries that are ahead of us I would have never even put in the top 50 if guessing. New Zealand #2??? Finland #3????? Denmark # 4?!?!?! I REALLY need to get out more...hehehe!

Dave

...New Zealand #2??? ...

...and people bust their gut to emmigrate here thinking it's a great place to bring up kids and entirely safe to wander around at any time of night

Well, that was the case 40 years ago - not now.

Mo

....Well, that was the case 40 years ago - not now..

In terms of being a safe place just to clarify - my post above could be misconstrued.

Mo

Those facts really surprised me Mo. I really truly would have never guessed. New Zealand truly would have never even came to mind.

Dave

Dave, of course it all depends how the data is collected that go to make up those stats. If they differ from country to country, things can get distorted.

I didn't read that thing right through but it I doubt if they are far off the mark, judging by what the place feels like here at the moment.

My youngest son and I are hoping to do a driving tour around the US your Autumn and we were discussing the safety problems we might face - you know muggings in motels, being car-jacked, getting held at knife point in the street bla bla ....I'm not kidding.

I then said "we've been watching FAR too much TV! From my previous times over there, we'll be fine and dandy and just need to keep our wits about us that's all"

Then my son said ( get this! )"Even if not, we will have come from a great training ground!"

That should tell you how bad this crime thing has managed to creep up to feature so highly in our living standards here in NZ.

Still Dave, even so I am still surprised - probably more so by the fact of how we've let it become this way.

Enough depressing talk - otherwise I won't get out the door to go to work in a minute!

Mo

Dave, of course it all depends how the data is collected that go to make up those stats. If they differ from country to country, things can get distorted.

I didn't read that thing right through but it I doubt if they are far off the mark

If you do read it through Mo you'll find the US doesn't supply stats for many, even most, crimes (see the quote in my post to Dave above). The total 'crimes per capita' stats are highly skewed. So much so that I don't think it's a valid comparison.

Although that won't change anyone's perception of the crime rate in their area. Perception is completely independant of any stats.

...Perception is completely independant of any stats.....

True, in my line of work, I guess I get to have a good view of how things are going but by the number of burglaries, mindless murders, viscious assaults, car thefts, hooligans with hoodies, gangs and graffiti that abound, I tend to agree NZ is up there amongst the highest.

Mo

"Dave, of course it all depends how the data is collected that go to make up those stats. If they differ from country to country, things can get distorted. "

I agree Mo.

Sometimes people from other countries get the impression that we are driving through a hail of gun fire to get to work...hehehehe! But, those of us who live here know that only happens on the ride home on Fridays.

"Still Dave, even so I am still surprised - probably more so by the fact of how we've let it become this way."

I don't know Mo, it's a hard problem to solve. No one in ANY country seems to have an answer to that riddle just yet. I doubt we ever will.


Dave

...But, those of us who live here know that only happens on the ride home on Fridays....

Hahahaha, that cracks me up. We'll plan to stay indoors on Fridays then - or be in a bar with someone like Hawk!

Mo

my friend from australia tol me the exact same thing that it wasn't safe there anymore and people will steal anything they can move.