I personally dont feel that there is a stopping
point at which you say to your self, "there, I dont need to learn anything else. I'm good enough." I know if there was, I never would have
started in the first place.

In my view, playing an instrument is like any
other activity, simply an evolving proccess of
understanding.

I don't know about 'good enough' but it sure was nice to hear my 12-year old son tell his friend on the phone that 'dad is really starting to sound ok'. It might have had something to do with me giving him my full drum kit AND convincing his mother to let him keep and play them. Who knows? :)

Good Enough??
The one thing that holds my world together and I mean it as a whole thing, "got to remember that balance of life, & nature thing etc. Is music.
I have played music longer than anything else in my life, and I have not stopped learning, its that drive thing, Getting to that math thing, from Mr. E. "Once an object is in motion, it tends to stay in motion." As all the other good replies state, it's a personal thing we each deal with, before say, insanity, from the complusion to be the what-ever it is that put us close to the edge, the most knowledgeable, the fastest, blah, blah. Trust me, and for some of you older seasoned folks as well, many times the line has been drawn in the sand for me, Thus I go inward diving hard to the quite personal place to reflect, well thats what I say I'm doing, I'm really practing with headphones at 2a.m. cause theres that one section,or that new song were playing tomarrow night, or yes honey I love you but I just got to do this. yade yade, Ya I walk the line of insanity all the time. But as I say music holds my balance of life, and tears at my balance of life. The things I know that helps me are B.B.King still playing at early 70 something, Les Paul, almost 80, and still playing, "There still Playing Gigs people." All the Blues artists, John Lee Hooker 80 something, or close still playing. Get as damn good as you can get, "the drive". Then take a deep breath, and know that you have some time, and say to your self, Theres got to be more and you will at that time realize that you are only a beginner in life. Bass is my forth instrument to learn, "I still play the others all the time," Its making me a better ("Musician"). Yes, I can finally say look at the big picture. My illusion is indeed Grand, and all encompassing. Now If I can just take time off from my day job to practice more, and figure out how to get a bigger bass amp, and well excuse me I have to go reflect, no its not 2a.m. yet, maybe I could of said, relax, "if it is to be, it is up to me" Happy Thoughts. Meaning I've got till I drop to be the best I can be. Ya just sort of a complusive personality.

Man, sounds like you need a beer!

The soup begins to boil....lol! Great insights on all fronts gentlemen but please allow me to further clarify...I am not putting down math. I am embellishing all that it encompases by putting a focus on a much negleted aspect....that 1 percent brother Jim spoke of. Let me put it this way, math is the lifeblood of any computer and with all the advances we have seen there is one thing they can never do.....feel. Why? How do you teach or program feeling? Is man and his numerical language God? Metaphysical equations in nature existed long before we discovered them and like nasa space explorers every musician has a chance to venture as far as their courage will allow them. Even an astronaut crosses their fingers at some point and whispers a silent prayer for positive results in an endeavor where error could mean life or death. Are we better than them? How can primitive peoples who live in the rainforest exploit the use of plants and animal poisons to create medicines that could possibly be cures for aids or cancer when they have never learned 1 plus 1 = 2? This is the mystery I humble myself before.......I just have a problem putting the musical creative process in a box. It is far to sacred for that. When I create, I empty myself so I can fill up on what creation has to say. The formulations are still there in spite of me (not BECAUSE of me). The result can entertain, heal or have negative influence on the listener....Who do I want to impress? A select "educated" few? Or are we just scratching the surface of this frontier called sound. Harmony in ALL reguards is my point.

Ah, Bill, have I told you how much I love boiling soup...lol! I agree with you whole heartedly, so now it is my turn to further clarify. When you say math, you have to encompass the scope and range of the entire artform which goes far beyond the very limited boundaries of computers. Math is the thing that binds, or better yet the medium in which we explain the things that bind. For this I will make a comparison between a great musician and a great mathmatician. I am not talking about your average, "copy the last guy and add a little punctuation to make it my own" type of guys. I am talking the innovators of an artform. Jaco, as an example or Einstein as another. Neither one of these people, nor the other gifted few real "artists" put their creative artforms inside a box. (Sidebar: I really dig the box metaphor, by the way) All great artists of any craft study their artform and then, within the confines of that they stretch the box to encompass new ideas. These new ideas that were once outside of the box now begin to define the box until some new artist comes along and again thinks outside of the box. I'm sure there are many people out there who can imitate Jaco, and there are a thousand math and pysics majors who can reiterate Einsteins theories with greata skill, and maybe even be able to apply them, but those people are not the inovators. They are not the true creators. You can only create when you take what you have learned and force yourself out of your comfort zone and find something new. That is a truly noble goal.

So as a summation, math is a language, just like music. Both of these languages can be used as an artform to create. And Bill, I think we are just scratching the surface of this frontier called expression and harmony is a beautiful thing.

Russ

I guess I started this soup boiling when I brought
up the math art thing,and I'm gald it inspired so much thought,and that is my point!!,thought, its the basis of "any" art form, from math to music its the thought that really makes the "feel" of it.reguardless of what art form it takes,always
remember art is everywhere,if you don't see it,
thats ok, someone else does,

Agreed.

well i think its relative on the surface. "good" is when you can beat the competition for a spot whether its for a high school band or for a band with a multimillion dollar deal. As a deeper meaning there is no good enough because you can always improve and you always should

wow. this post sums up my whole world. id like to add one thing though. true music, the timeless kind, is heard before it is written. be it within the mind of its creator, or played as an improv and then kept for its quality. the written form is used in an attempt to convey it to other musicians. it may be crude (compared to the live rendition), inexact, and incomplete, but nonetheless, is the only current (and past) working system of doing so. i feel music theory is needed as a first step to something that has yet to be developed, like lower mathematics was needed before relativity and quantum theory. im not saying music can ever be fully expressed in a logical cohesive system, but i feel there is something more precise than current notations that will excel further towards that goal.