It's exceptional because of the depth of the
music. The lyrics are uplifting, the bass and
drum driven harmonies are intense and balanced
perfectly. The guitar riffs are both soaring high
and digging around in the dirt. They do more than
just make music; the CD is made in such a way that
it's almost a landscape. Grudge - Mantra are sea
level, suddenly a spike with scism and parabol and
parabola, then a plateau with T&L, then a massive
jump to the peak of a mountain with Lateralis.
Then slowly back down the moutain with the rest of
the tracks.

The first time I heard the CD, I did it when I was
building a cabinet, so I didn't pay much attention
to the music. As a result, I thought it was so so.

Until I sat down in the dark and turned the volume
up and listened to it through a kicking system.
There is so much going on in each and every song,
I can't even describe it.

This is going to sound strange, but try this. Get
the cd, sit alone, in the dark, and turn it up
through good speakers. Then, don't focus on any
one part of the music, just open your mind and try
to absorb it all at once. It takes about 5
minutes before you can do it, but then you'll
appreciate it SO much more.

Or you could smoke.

-=M

P.S. I hate Radiohead. The guy's a whiner.

And I never found anything good about Weezer at all.

I actually listen to all new CDs the way you described. I frankly didn't anything more out of it than I did out of Chungas revenge, weasles ripped my flesh, Extremist orgy, Lather, Drop the soap, or any other sonic masterpiece.



Maybe some herb is needed to, um, expand my musical conciousness and perception.

I don't think it's better than Aenema. It's on a
totally different planee I wouldn't say that it's
their best work ever, but it's right up there with
the piece that kicked the music industry's a-- a
few years ago.

-=M

OK....the new tool isn't their greatest album ever, and the weezer is just a judgement call on your part.... and I totally agree with the KID A remark.... I think Radiohead needs to be dragged out into the street and be beaten... they really annoy me

i would actually say that lateralus IS the best tool album in some ways. it is, by far, the most complex - i think i'm going to be hearing new parts every time i listen to it for the next 6 years. much like The Downward Spiral, by nails, in that way, except even more texturally dense.

since radiohead was also mentioned:

in a lot of ways, lateralus reminds me of kid A. they're both texturally complex, relatively devoid of hooks, intelligent, so on and so forth. however, lateralus, unlike kid A, isn't a bunch of candyass self indulgent whimpering. much as i like kid A, and as much as it impresses me in many, many ways, at the end of the day, it is much weaker than lateralus.

I agree that the new album is much more complicated musicaly, but that is not what always makes a better album. I wish more people would look at music as a music lover and not as a musician. Some of the greatest songs ever written are also some of the simplest. And I still think those pompous snots in Radiohead shoud be dragged into the street and beaten.

i don't think they should be beaten, they're too delicate - i think they should be forced to make an album with chris barnes from cannibal corpse. now THAT would be an album...

That is a good idea.... or maybe they should be the opening act at a Metallica concert.... oops... they don't do those anymore do they

I don't know, too each his own. I enjoy Tool's music.. but I think sometimes people try to read a little more into their music then is really there. Like that crazy art teacher that tells you that the tree in the picture is actually not a tree but something something profound and a representation of (insert crazy art teacher speech here). Of course if that is what you read into the music or the said tree :P thats prefectly fine, thats what art is all about.. but its subjective and personal.. its not real. One person's profound statement is anothers pile of poopy :P. Of course I'm the one who thinks the world would be a better place if everyone really sat and listened to Manson :P.

Charles Manson or Mansun the band?

Steve

Hehe, I thought Manson the band was clear but I guess you could look at it that way :) Not sure why you spelled Manson with a u though unless there is another Manson with a u out there that I'm ignorant of (wouldn't be the first). Lol.. funny thing.. I had an English teacher my freashman year in college who was actually named Marilyn Manson. An older lady, I'd guess late 50's.. when she introduced herself I laughed, but kept it to myself enough that I don't think she heard. Then she handed out the syllabus and my foot felt its way a bit into my mouth.

Mansun (the Band, Draper, Chad, et al) are spelt that way becasue the estate of Charles Manson were going to sue them for using the name. I don't know if we're talking about the same band here (Albums- Attack of the Grey Lantern, Six and Little Kix)? Anyway, I think they're pretty cool.

Oh yeah. Charles Manson writes songs. Ever hear that one on the end of the Spaghetti Incident? It was rubbish.

Steve

Hehe no.. different band.. the band I'm talking about is called Marilyn Manson albums from newest to oldest; Holy Wood, Mechanical Animals, Antichrist Superstar, Smells Like Children, and Portrait of an American Family.

Gotcha. Not keen on the music, but I must say that Rock is Dead (?) is a great song.

Steve

Don't worry Steve,
I've heard of Mansun, and have Attack Of The Grey Lantern. I thought they were kinda different, but We haven't heard anymore from them here in the States lately. Thought they'd be a big hit here (but that was IMHO)

~thesonicdude

Did they not release the last two albums over there?

Steve

Apparently not...at least I haven't heard anything more from them.

~thesonicdude

Thats a shame- they're both really good, kind of experimental, but not Kid A experimental. Sort of full on rock with paedophilia undertones experimental. Little Kix is a bit of a return to form (ie like Grey Lantern). Well worth it if you see it.

Steve

Tool's lyrics are closely based on spiritual and
psychological concepts. Such as Jungian
psychology and other phenomenon, such as sacred
geometry and Enochian/hermetic magiks. They
really are as deep as you seem to think they
pretend to be.

Just do some homework. There's about a million
books you could read that would get you to
understand Tool's lyrics beyond "my shadow, my
shadow". Try Jung's "the Archetypes and the
Collective Unconscious", or Bob Frissel's "Nothing
in this Book is True, but it's Exactly How Things
Are". Or, if you want to throw your entire
understanding of the Bible's Genesis into
disarray, read the true trasncription of the
Qabala in Carlo Suares's "The Cipher of Genesis".

It wasn't until I started really reading that I
began to understand why Tool is what they are.

-=M

Sh** Matt, that E-mail about girls on your Homepage is really doing the rounds- I've got the same thing stuck to my wall here. I gave a copy to the little lady as well, just to make sure that she understands.

Steve

There's a mistake in the logic. Can you find it?

Glad you like it.

-=M

Something is stuck to his wall that I can't repeat here???? ;-)

Okay, I'll take the plunge. I can't see it, unless it has to do with the wording of the axiom.

;-)

PS It really is clever...

'Time and Money' is not a product (i.e. not x), it should be summated (i.e. +).

Steve

I completely missed that. I was looking at the word 'require' and thinking that it didn't exactly mean 'equal.'

;-)

aye...
in essence: girls require either twice the money or twice the time. In either way, you're screwed because you only have half.

My math teacher started the year by proving to us that 2 = 1 - it took me 3 days to find the mistake. My head hurt after that.

just to throw in another brainf---:

money = fun;
therefore girls = twice the fun

Children=Three times the fun?

nah, 1.5 - they're half-sized

But they require even more money than women need. The little buggers ain't half as fun neither.

I certainly hope they're not!

Well, they actually result from fun with women.

therefore children = 2.

simple math time:

children are the derivative of fun with girls, correct? Therefore we can safely assume that girls are a function of fun:



f(fun) = 2fun
f'(fun) = lim h->0 [f(fun+h)-f(fun)]/h
= lim h->0 [(2fun+2h)-(2fun)]/h
= lim h->0 [2fun + 2h - 2fun]/h
= lim h->0 [2h/h]
= lim h->0 2
therefore:

children, the derivative of fun in regards to girls, are 2.

Ryan

or, better stated, children are a function where you put in twice the time (or money) and it returns half the fun.

I'm not really arguing that there not deep, you can't really prove a negative.. but.. hehe.. I dunno.. I think you may be taking this a little seriously. I don't see someone who sings and is guided by emotion with an education to back him any more deep then someone who sings and is just guided by emotion.

I guess I see your point. It just lets you get a
better picture of what was running through their
minds when you can look in a book and understand
the concepts they are discussing. And since 90%
of the world has no idea about Jung's Collective
Unconscious, that's 90% of the world who will hear
Tool's lyrics and say "oh, wow, whooppitee doo.
46&2, this guy's singing about numbers, I don't
get it. It's mediocre."

Better Living through Understanding (and Chemistry)

-=M

But wouldn't that 90% know about the Jung's Collective Unconsicious by tapping into their own?

chris sighs as his own feeble attempt at humor fails once again...>

Right after I said that I knew someone was going
to say something along those lines. Congrats for
being predictable. :)

-=M

You're Welcome.

;-)

But then again, how could you not know? You also know that I have way too much time on my hands. Unless..., oh crap, I think I've started a fight between myselves again. Only one thing to do..., keep pushing that big ol' rock up the hill...

;-)

Ok, it doesn't work quite like that. It's not
like I automatically know what'sw going on in your
minds. That's why it's the collective "unconscious".

-=M

Matt, do you think you could help me out with this boulder for a minute? Great! Just put it on the top of this lil' ol' hill here. Yup, the one we're on. Thanks! I'll be right back...

( the journy continues as matt urges the boulder on. the pattering of feet diminishes as chris heads on out to the plain. matt is now alone... ) to be cont'd...

Run, Sisophys.

-=M

O
|<
^

I'd rather be Sisophys then Tantalus!

i have joke now from tantalos. each time i try hold pretty gril she run away. i must be stand in she shadow.

Yeah I think somehow I got caught in the devils advocate position.. because don't get me wrong I do like Tool. I also like Jung. I'm not sure that I feel Jungian Psychotherapy is the way to go (there are others which I feel work better in our present society).. but quite a few of his ideas fit with how I see the world and I love how he allows for the supernatural/religion/whatever label you want to put to it..
You've definately made me want to get the Tool album more damn you :).. but the dustballs in my pockets speak otherwise for now :(

actually, i just took a psychopathology class last semester, and no psychotherapy really works particularly well. the recovery rate for treatments based in freud, jung, et. al is not significantly different then the recovery rate for someone who doesn't actually get treatment. jung, while his theories are intriguing, is guilty of pseudoscience, to a greater extent than freud. great reading material, to be certain, but great in the way that dracula was great - as entertaining fiction. jung's philosophy also involves a number of supernatural elements, which is why the psychological community hasn't, and most likely won't, ever really take him seriously.

cool to write songs about, though :)

I have had some therapy and have 'in'-joyed seeing the different ways there are to look at myself, but I believe that the standard treatment for mental illnesses is through chemicals. There is much thought, as I know with my limited understanding of it all, that chemical imbalances of the chemistry of the brain has much to do with these problems. Hopefully, one day, it will all be figured out and those suffering from whatever can get the proper care they need instead of being forced to live on the streets.

2 cents
;-)

There are sooooooo many psychotherapies beyond psychoanalysis.. and if I had my books I would give the numbers as to how wrong you were but.. as I just sold most of my books for money I'm sitting here as to a loss. Most psychotherapies work better then no treatment even if success is small, at numbers large enough to be statistically significant. You have to realize a large amount of what is studied in a psychopathology class is extreme and is there because its "cool". I really haven't read any therapies at this point that have ever made claim to being able to heal a psychosis. Even things like ocd or phobias which have a good deal of success with behavioral therapies often are accompanied with drugs in more difficult cases to help patients deal with anxiety. Therapy has definate and important uses but it can't help the unwilling and the psycho. :P

James,

Seems you have a lot of understanding of the problems related to therapy. Like I said, I've had some, but it wasn't psychoanalysis, if I understand it correctly. Anyway, whether it is behavioral therapy, drug therapy, or both, help can be had, but it takes a long time. The drug thereapy that I've received for ocd, bipolar/major depression and anxiety have had an amazing affect on me, BUT, I'm still "TESTING" the drugs. After all, even the doctors don't have a clue as to the effect (affect?) of specific drugs for specific people until they try them for a good period of time, and then it might not work at all. Phew, seems I'm going on a little bit. Oh well...

Here are the Prescriptions I've used over the last @ 2 years:

Elavil - 4 months - Some relief but tired and headaches.
Paxil and Neurontin - Worked wonders for me, the most definate positive effects, but pooped out after about 6 months.
Effexor and Neurontin - 2 month trial. Some relief but BAD headaches.
Prozac and Neurontin - Good results again but not as good as Paxil - and lathargic - Prozac pooped out after 6 months
Prozac, Neurontin and Lithium - 2 months of hell for me. I had a terrible time with the addition of the Lithium. It was supposed to jump start the Prozac again, but terrible side effects.
Celexa, Remeron and Nurontin - to present - seems to be working quite well with little or no side effects. Hope this one continues to work. If not, I'll go on the the next.

I'm putting this all out here so that if anyone who is reading this happens to have some problems, there is help, and it does work. Don't get discouraged if things don't change for you over night. It is a major life change after all.

Oh yeah, who is Tool???

*-)

Interesting.. Im guessing the Neurontin was for bipolar.. but (I dont understand drugs btw) whats kinda wierd is my room mate who is ocd originally took paxil and effexor. I had originally though paxil was for the anxiety caused by ocd and that the effexor was for something.. I have no idea really.. thats say.. balance out the effects of paxil in a way.. but I guess there both ocd drugs? His psychiatrist/psychologist(forget which one) seems to think he might be bipolar now and was thinking about putting him on some drugs for that. Which I told him made me a littled worried. I feel she may be just shoving pills in his face. He doesn't seem bipolar to me.. I'm not psychologist or anything but I would think there would be more obvious signs. She at least took him off effexor and know he is just on paxil which seems to work for him.. but I think he needs to be slowly taken off it. Its easy to have no anxiety when theres a drug doing it for you. I would think to slowly reduce his medication every once in a long while would allow how to learn to control his anxiety when he encounters (in his case) dirty houses/apartments.

I know, it's crazy, isn't it. But the doctors don't even know what to use, and I'm not putting them down by the way. It's just that they don't really, I mean really, know what's going on in the brain. Paxil is for what? The FDA approved its use in the US for??? Seizure control! It was only after noting that the side effect of paxil was reduced anxiety do to various phobias. Go figure... But please don't take this as gospel, I don't have all the facts. So, the Paxil might not be being used for bipolar. I would leave that up to the psychiatrist and your friend to try to sort out. Like I indicated in my other message, the trip ain't an easy one, but when something finally works, it is well worth it!

;-)

Yep, thats basically all that matters. Lol.. I won't get into the whole story but when I was younger my parents sent me to a psychologist fearing that I was clinically depressed anyway.. it just turned out I was add. So.. at the time I personally hated the stuff (ritalin).. anyway, recently I decided I'd give it another go, found a 3 year old prescription (seems it lasts a long time -- 4 years) and have decided to give the old doctor another call.. because this time it seems to work. Personally I think as a teen I didn't like the stigma nor did it help my self-esteem to think I needed to be medicated but.. now I'm more open-minded :P. Kind of funny tho.. one of the reasons a.d.d. is so debated is that it actually doesn't "fix" anything. Just makes us add folks hyper and dopes up the adhd folks :P.

BTW.. humans aren't cut and dry creatures. I'm guessing by the way you put down Jung as pseudo-science (even though pretty much every therapy couldn't be proven as fact -- or else we'd only use those specific therapies) that you like behaviorism. Behaviorism is all fine and dandy but it can be fundamentally flawed since it only treats the symptoms of the illness. They don't take a look inside because that's were the icky pseudo-science occurs. I mean.. if a person say.. feels so full of anxiety that he is about to explode whenever he sees a... how about something cliche.. woman.. a behaviorist may just throw him in a room full of women or the cognitive-behaviorist may work him up to the point of imagining it and then testing it in the real world. In many of these cases there will always be some anxiety, but behaviorists can usually get it down to a normal or more manageable amount. No obviously this is much more down to earth and could be called science without to much debate.. but most people can see the problems in this. Problem #1: That's say you get a kid that used to hit his head 100 times against a wall a day.. to do it only 10 times.. is that kid cured? Or.. Problem #2: Who's to say that the man we talked about earlier wouldn't find a new way to manifest his anxiety.. or maybe the reason he was filled with anxiety is because he lusted after those women and had thoughts of raping them which disgusted him and therefore caused anxiety.. well when that anxiety went away did the uncontrollable lust also? I'm having difficulty explaining and I'm babbling but I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to poke at. We don't understand the human mind, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.